slideshow86 Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 I am at a loss here. Every thing that I am familair w/ checks out. I have spent as much money and extra time to this damn brat and it stilll wont run right. I just have too many projects to keep messing with this thing. Plus I am not getting anywhere w/ it. I am pulling the insurance off it and pushing it next to all my other non running cars. I just cant afford to throw any more money to this thing if its not going to run right. I know its just somthing stupid and if someone who was familair w/ these cars were to look at it they would probably go, "hay stupid, you know this is supposed to be like this" or "didnt you know that doesnt work w/ these cars" or " your missing parts"? So if anyone who is local, wants to trade some labor or lift parts for help getting this thing right. Please let me know. Other wize ill just let it sit here, ( I wont sell it, Ill just swap in an ej or somthing. I feel stupid about this whole thing. Problem is, I got everything in pieces and dont even know what its "supposed" to look like. Ive gotten it the way it is from the help from this board. Now, Im stuck....... >Short run through< I know the fuel delivery system is up working well, New front and rear filters, pump is pumping correct gmp. The original weber, I rebuilt, It ran really bad. The seccond onecame off a running subaru, it seems to be a "little" better. Only because the choke and ************ are set right. The coil and disty are from 2wd, Getting good spark, dont know how to test for "correct" spark. Tried 8,10, and 12 btdc for timing, thing still accelerates really jerky and like a slug. Now its set to 10 Plugs, plug wires, cap and rotor are all brand new. Every vacuum line is brand new w/ new hose clamps. >What its doing< It will idle nicely, seems to be smooth enough that I feel the timing is at 10btdc. 1st gear revs nice, 2nd is really jerky and has no power, 3rd is REALLY jerky, w/ even less power and 4th is undrivable w/ how jerky it is and how low the power is. The car wont go over 38-40 mph. On a lift, all wheels roll smothly, seems the brakes arent dragging on any corners, the cv's are all intact (not saying a doj isnt toast), all motor mts and trans mounts are new. Alignment is good, car doenst pull every which way. Oh and the kicker is it goes away 100% when you push in the clutch. To me, it feels like a timing issue even though ive reset it 10000000 times Thanks Jess Fed up with this damn thing. I am about to put a tarp over it for 2 reasons. 1 every time I see it, I want to drive/ wheel it and the 2nd is for rust. She is almost rust free! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woundedbrat Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Sounds like a timing issue to me also. I assume its an EA81. have these gear driven cams ever jump a tooth is that even possible or was it possible put together wrong. Maybe the timing gear is worn out of spec. one way to check is to put the timing marks at tdc, remove distributor cap , turn crank pulley until you see rotor start to turn then look at timing marks and see how many degrees before movement. I had a bronco that wouldnt pass smog all the mechanics were stumped because they were looking at the smog controlls and everything checked out. I did this check got about 7 degrees of backlash, changed timing chain and gears and presto passed with flying colors.I beleive up to 4 degrees slack is acceptable hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstaru Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 sounds like a vacuum problem first off.then a clutch disc possibly bad throwout bearing prob second.possibly one tooth off on disty? the actual running of the motor does good right? when you were on the lift did you try an"drive " it ? the vacuum probs with the weber a relatively simple to alleviate.get rid of everything that is in the way.clean up your engine bay by removing unecessary connections. this may help with power isue. second.if you did drive it on the lift then did it do the same thing with no resistance?in other words without the wheels on the ground does it "buck"?if not it may a tension issue on the clutch i would think. you saying thast it goes away when the clutch is pushed in is curious.when you release the clutch does it feel like it grabs for a sec then lets go?and continues this cycle? all i guess i am saying is that once upon a time i had a weber that was doing the same thing as far as power was concerned.i realized i forgot to hook up my vacuum port on the front and voile'.done. now i also had a clutch not grab properly.replaced throwout bearing,and pressure plate to fix that.in retrospect i had thought i maybe had it backwards ,but do not think that is physically possible.anyways. setting your weber to the base settings every time you mes with some type of vacuum is almost necessary.you may also be running to large of jets. what primaries ,secondaries,and air correctors do you have?hope something helps.and if it comes down to it.just bring it over here .i'll take it. cheers, brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IdahoJak Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 I'm no expert, but it does sound like timing may be a problem. When you had the timing light on it, I presume you had the car at idle, warmed up, and the vacuum advance line plugged up. Did you rev up the engine to see if the timing advanced via the mechanical advance in the distributor? If it advanced quite abit (I'm guessing about 10 degrees more) then it is probably working OK. Then connect the vacuum advance line back to the dizzy. Rev it up again, it should advance even more, (maybe another 5-10 degrees) if so, it is working OK. Good luck, don't give up yet, it probably is some simple little thing and you'll feel real good about yourself once you find it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[HTi]Johnson Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Probably a redundant question...you have the plug wires in the right spots on the cap? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slideshow86 Posted March 8, 2008 Author Share Posted March 8, 2008 Ok, first yes its an ea81 Brat, The car was at my shop getting a lift installed and didnt run. I had it towed to my house and got the weber and intake from markjw. The intake had all these plugs already in it, it was sealed. Timing was achieved by setting the carb to "initial setup" settings. All new plugs, wires cap rotor. Setting to what GD said to set the flywheel at, 8btdc w/ 1cyl at tdc, w/ the rotor facing the #1 tower on the cap. With the correct firing order. I was able to finaly get it to run after replacing fuel filters and fixing the fuel pump wiring. I was having issues w/ the first webers choke. The seccond weber is able to be set up correctly and had no issues. It came off a good running ea81 hatch that mark had. Dont know the jet size. Mark and I did the same thing when replacing all the vacuum lines, that he did on all his subies. Im almost sure theres no vacuum leak. I know I blocked off all the egr and things coming from the head to the intake and all that stuff. Could this be an issue? I can get the car up to operating temp and she fires every time? Doesnt diesel on shut down. Revs clean just sitting there. Has LOTS of hessitation trying to drive. It drives ok in first. I have a few things to play on out back and was able to test 4wd and stuff. ( I got this thing pretty stripped, I dont know the condition of anything and was not near in running condition when I got it, I took on the project not ever seing under the hood of an ea81). The clutch was grabbing pretty well, dont know if this matters. I was able to climb a few prretty steep hills in first, there was zero clutch slip, but has massive hessitation when shifting any other gear.I actually kida got a little stuck trying to crawl through this one part and had to work it forward and backward. I was suprised how "good" the clutch acually felt. I checked the clutch cable to make sure it was set right, but the pedal feels good. It is missing the spring that pulls the clutch fork back? When I got insurance on it, I did a few road tests. It seems the hessitation is followed with/ caused by the vibration. It goes away w/ the clutch in and comes back right away when I release it. I know that what ever it is when I got it, had ripped drivers side motor mount in half and trashed drivers side trans mount. Ive replaced them with new. Its shaking the hell out of the transmission. It feels like it could be drive line? I want to swap it but havent search yet if one from a hatch or wagon will fit? I have a few to swap in to test if it does... Would this cause hessitation? I dunno, either way the car feels waaaayyy to under powered. I cant get over 40 for christs sake... Im just bummed :-\ ( the car that the carb came off of was able to go 65 on the freeway no problem) Idahojak- Yes the vac adcadvance is plugged when shooting time, when revving it it does advance timing, cant tell if its more w/ vac advance hooked up. I guess that depends on how much I rev it. I did the vac advance test thing where you blow in the tube to see if it moves and it doenst really move. I was going to swap it out with one I had but all the spares are hitachis, as the p.o. swapped in a 2wd dizzy and rotor. I have a complete hitachi setup, rotor and dizzy. Should I try to drop that it? Also. the coil says that there needs to be a ressistor hooked up? I dont think I have this ressistor, nor is it hooked up? Hti- 1-3-2-4 right? I wonder if I have the wrong cap and rotor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstaru Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 vac advance. "I did the vac advance test thing where you blow in the tube to see if it moves and it doenst really move. " you need to suck to see if it moves. am i smart rump roast, or did you just post that wrong?cheers, brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slideshow86 Posted March 8, 2008 Author Share Posted March 8, 2008 vac advance. "I did the vac advance test thing where you blow in the tube to see if it moves and it doenst really move. " you need to suck to see if it moves. am i smart rump roast, or did you just post that wrong?cheers, brian Actually I think I tried it both ways? I must have read it wrong just being grumpy trying to search threw what seems hundreds of posts that dont even seem to be the same makes and models of my car. Most people having my issue seem to have an spfi? or ea82 carbed car Ok does the position of the #1 plug wire really matter if the firing order is correct and the rotor is at #1 when at tdc? I dont have a #1 possition Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferox Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Maybe I missed it in the previous posts, but did you try the ol' carb cleaner vacuum leak check? Since you can get it to idle no problem that's a quick and easy way to double check the vac system. Sorry if you have already done this, and I missed mention of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slideshow86 Posted March 8, 2008 Author Share Posted March 8, 2008 Maybe I missed it in the previous posts, but did you try the ol' carb cleaner vacuum leak check? Since you can get it to idle no problem that's a quick and easy way to double check the vac system. Sorry if you have already done this, and I missed mention of it. Ya I have started 3 other threads that I have posted in a bunch of times and it ends up just getting pushed back a few pages. This was just a thread to say I thank everyone for the help but thinking I think I am just going to push it out back and going to see if someone local could take a look at it. Ill tinker with it here and there, but have been at it everyweekend and a alot of midweek days, for over a month I think someone who knows these cars could fix it no problem and I feel stupid that I just cant figure it out. Never been soo stumped. I am almost wondering if the flywheel could be on there wrong? Isnt there a pin, so It can only go on one way? Anyone Near Olympia Washington interested? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slideshow86 Posted March 8, 2008 Author Share Posted March 8, 2008 She just wants to run..... Well she does run and shuts off w/o dieseling. The car was at operating temp and the person that started the car didnt give it time to idle before shutting it off. No big deal, just saying the car didnt die in the vid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slideshow86 Posted March 10, 2008 Author Share Posted March 10, 2008 Ok so I had half the day to myself, so I coulndnt help but working on it. I went and got 2 new axles and 2 new lower ball joints. Picked up a driveshaft to test, but the rear u-joint was shot so I didnt install it. After swapping everything in, It drives really well, no more crazy vibrations. Well all the way to the end of 3rd! Woo hoo! I messed with the timing and the mixture screw and the idle, in many different orders, trying to get the best combo for power. It seems ok/little weak as far as power goes( ive never driven one and ive heard there under powered) up till the end of 3rd but I cant use any part of 4th. My new top speed was 52 in 3rd. As far as the power goes. It seems to have really good power in 1st. seems like the power in 2nd is good . Although it doesnt like to rev out? (too advanced? I also had moved it from 12 to 10btdc) 3rd is pretty weak( also wont rev out). In 4 low it seems really good 1st-3rd. As far as the vibration, it happens when I shift from 3rd to 4th it instantly begins as soon as I push throttle, shift back to 3rd and no vibration. The vibration seems to be coming from the rear of the transmission, It shakes violently. I can coast in 4th, but as soon as I push throttle it vibrates soo bad I cant hold a constant speed in 4th. 3rd is great. Im going to try to swap that other drive line in and see if it atleast helps. This brat was wheeled pretty hard and the drive line could be bent or dented? But it seems great in 3rd? weird...Atleast i made a little progress. I think it will actually make it to a few wheeling spots around my house now so thats pretty sweet The eng is really ticky and I have yet to pull a compression test. It is a hydro eng, and supposedly it only has 90k? Grrrr, I need power!!!!( Just typing this, I think I should know what size jets im working with before I do to much more) Ok so I am doing this right correct.....GD told me to set the flywheel at 8btdc with the #1 piston at tdc (compression stroke) and have the rotor facing the #1 spark plug tower. Set timing to 8btdc with car warm at 800rmp with vac advance plugged. Im just making sure the setting of the flywheel at 8btdc w/ the #1 piston at tdc is correct. I get the best results shooting timing at 10-12btdc compared to 8? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 As far as the vibration, it happens when I shift from 3rd to 4th it instantly begins as soon as I push throttle, shift back to 3rd and no vibration. The vibration seems to be coming from the rear of the transmission, It shakes violently. I can coast in 4th, but as soon as I push throttle it vibrates soo bad I cant hold a constant speed in 4th. 3rd is great. Im going to try to swap that other drive line in and see if it atleast helps. This brat was wheeled pretty hard and the drive line could be bent or dented? But it seems great in 3rd? weird...Atleast i made a little progress. I think it will actually make it to a few wheeling spots around my house now so thats pretty sweet Tranny may be shot - if it were the driveline it would be in all gears with 4WD engaged. Also the driveline shouldn't matter in 2WD. The eng is really ticky and I have yet to pull a compression test. It is a hydro eng, and supposedly it only has 90k? Grrrr, I need power!!!!( Just typing this, I think I should know what size jets im working with before I do to much more) Ticking isn't good - means you have oil pressure issues, and it takes a big problem with the oil pressure to make the EA81 hydro's tick. Remove the oil pump and inspect carefully for damage. Ok so I am doing this right correct.....GD told me to set the flywheel at 8btdc with the #1 piston at tdc (compression stroke) and have the rotor facing the #1 spark plug tower. Set timing to 8btdc with car warm at 800rmp with vac advance plugged. Im just making sure the setting of the flywheel at 8btdc w/ the #1 piston at tdc is correct. I get the best results shooting timing at 10-12btdc compared to 8? Thanks That's correct - it should be 8 - not 10, not 12. If it doesn't run correctly at 8 then you have the carb set wrong. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lhand1900 Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Mine did the same thing, it had sat for 2 years. it also had sat with almost no gas in it... after 2 tanks of gas and 2 cans of Berrymans (my personal favorate) and a pair of new filters, I ran it low on gas, put a 5 gal. can under the drain with a paint strainer and drained the tank. then took the line off comeing to the filter with the cap loosend and used short blasts of air (wach the pressure!) I couldn't believe how much varnish I got out. it came out like snot the dried in the filter. it was enought to float around and restrict the tube that feeds the pump. the cleaner probably would have desolved it eventually, but this really seemed to take care of mine. It just dropped the fuel pressure enough that it couldn't keep up in the upper gears. Works great now. good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baccaruda Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 These cars are pretty basic - it's only a matter of time before you nail it down. Remember - an experiment is not a failure if you learn something. Just don't assume something's the problem and then, if after tinkering with such, you still have the problem. You've just crossed something off of the list and made the problem that much easier to solve. My suggestion, as I didn't see mention of addressing them - get new mounts for the trans and motor. Get the part numbers from the dealer and look for them on ebay where they can often be had very inexpensively. Replace your strut rod bushings too (they're reasonably cheap from the dealer) and check for bent strut rods or trashed control arms or control arm bushings while you're in there. That will quiet it down a lot and help you find the real problem. If you need to change the transmission, consider the 5speed swap and buy your motor mounts accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slideshow86 Posted March 11, 2008 Author Share Posted March 11, 2008 These cars are pretty basic - it's only a matter of time before you nail it down. Remember - an experiment is not a failure if you learn something. Just don't assume something's the problem and then, if after tinkering with such, you still have the problem. You've just crossed something off of the list and made the problem that much easier to solve. My suggestion, as I didn't see mention of addressing them - get new mounts for the trans and motor. Get the part numbers from the dealer and look for them on ebay where they can often be had very inexpensively. Replace your strut rod bushings too (they're reasonably cheap from the dealer) and check for bent strut rods or trashed control arms or control arm bushings while you're in there. That will quiet it down a lot and help you find the real problem. If you need to change the transmission, consider the 5speed swap and buy your motor mounts accordingly. Thanks man I appreciate it. My problem is, I have never seen one of these cars just have parts or go to wrecking yards. I dont know what its supposed to look like or what the po has changed. When I got insurance on it, I did a few road tests. It seems the hessitation is followed with/ caused by the vibration. It goes away w/ the clutch in and comes back right away when I release it. I know that what ever it is when I got it, had ripped drivers side motor mount in half and trashed drivers side trans mount. Ive replaced them with new. Still shaking the hell out of the transmission Last thread Now I just have a real bad vibration to deal w/. Got new eng and trans mount installed, tire pressures up and front axles arent too bad. Doesnt really feel like a doj vibration. maybe. All I know is I have to get this 4 speed trans out and a 5 speed in quickly! I went and got 2 new axles and 2 new lower ball joints. I inspected everything when installing the lift. Everything visually is ok, and passes my "shake" test. strut rod bushings could be? But the vibration now is on and off like a switch. Just shifting from 3rd to 4th.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baccaruda Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 the strut rod bushings will generally need replacement anyway so you may as well go for it. You're in one of the best places in the world, literally, to be dealing with subaru problems. There are so many Subarus and enthusiasts in that part of Washington it's ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slideshow86 Posted March 11, 2008 Author Share Posted March 11, 2008 I know I was just hoping to get this thing going at least 60mph by 2weeks ago. To start working the bugs out and getting it road worthy. At least worthy enough to see if it would make the drive to walker valley, wheel it all day then drive home. But now thats looking slim to none. :-\ I wished some of the stock stuff would have been able to have been used. Been able to put some money into an ej or tires or somthing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferox Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 So I noticed that you have been posting 8btdc w/ the #1 piston at tdc checking the rotor position at #1 tower. This may be your problem. It sounds like a distributor install and timing set combined into one. Make sure that when the #1 piston is at tdc AND the rotor is at #1 tower that the flywheel is at 0 degrees (zero)(engine off). If it isn't, you need to re-install your disty to those settings (engine off), then set your timing to 8btdc (engine running). I apologize if I have misunderstood you, but if I haven't you can quickly get that sweet brat running much better. If the disty install isn't clear just give a shout, it's a quick walk-through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screwbaru2 Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 I've never owned or worked on one of these. Does it have EGR? This sounds an awful like a egr valve open when it should be closed. If it is egr'd with eng off stick your finger into the underside of the egr if it's opened NG. With the eng running do the check again it should be opened, rev the eng to 2500 rpms or> the egr should close. When egrs open after about 40 mph you get a MASSIVE vac leak that acts just like what your describing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 I've never owned or worked on one of these. Does it have EGR? This sounds an awful like a egr valve open when it should be closed. If it is egr'd with eng off stick your finger into the underside of the egr if it's opened NG. With the eng running do the check again it should be opened, rev the eng to 2500 rpms or> the egr should close. When egrs open after about 40 mph you get a MASSIVE vac leak that acts just like what your describing. EGR's open on "late ported vacuum" - starting at around 2000 RPM or higher. They do not open at idle. You have it all backwards. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheYeti Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 Johnson']Probably a redundant question...you have the plug wires in the right spots on the cap? This is what I would suggest before anything else... not that I know from personal experience or anything like that. It was Shawn's fault. Really.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferox Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 Setting to what GD said to set the flywheel at, 8btdc w/ 1cyl at tdc, w/ the rotor facing the #1 tower on the cap. With the correct firing order. Ok so I am doing this right correct.....GD told me to set the flywheel at 8btdc with the #1 piston at tdc (compression stroke) and have the rotor facing the #1 spark plug tower. Set timing to 8btdc with car warm at 800rmp with vac advance plugged. Im just making sure the setting of the flywheel at 8btdc w/ the #1 piston at tdc is correct. Don't fiddle with anything else until the distributor is installed so that the flywheel says 0btdc not 8btdc when the #1 piston is at tdc on the compression stroke and the rotor is pointed at the #1 tower. The 8btdc is only for when you are setting the timing with the timing gun, not when you are checking the distributor postion with the engine off. These are two of the most fundamental operating parameters for the engine and it will never run right if it ain't set right. If you start messing with stuff without having this set correctly you will just make it worse. I have a hard time believing that GD told you this incorrectly. It must be an initial misunderstanding that has now been perpetuated. That's part of the problem with long posts...they get skimmed rather than read throughly. Seriously, check this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slideshow86 Posted March 12, 2008 Author Share Posted March 12, 2008 It must be an initial misunderstanding that has now been perpetuated. That's part of the problem with long posts...they get skimmed rather than read throughly. Seriously, check this. This brat has about 3-4 threads of issues. I dont have a manual, (BTW if someone has a FSRM for an 84 brat. Ill take It!) I have always initially set everything to zero and I just wanted to double check. (measure twice, cut once ya know) TDC on #1 with flywheel at 0 (both valves closed). Turn flywheel BACK to 8 BTDC. Insert distributor so rotor is pointing at a plug wire tower on the cap - this will be your #1 plug wire tower. Install plug wires 1-3-2-4 in a counter-clockwise orientation starting at the tower you chose for #1. Verify the timeing with a light. Should be about 8 degrees without vacuum advance at 750 RPM. GD http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=85550&page=3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caboobaroo Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 Maybe if I get a chance, I can come down this Sunday and give you a hand. I've found that you're supposed to disconnect the vac line from the disty and plug it before setting base time. My '78 FSM says to do that with both the vacuum advance and retard (gen 1 sort of thing) so I'd imagine it would be the same for the EA81 as well. Try that, you may be in luck. I know when I swapped the 2wd EA81 disty into my '78 Brat I unplugged it from the disty and put a bolt into it before I timed it and it worked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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