92 replies to this topic

[CarpeNoctem]

If you did all of that there would be no point in haveing a ea82 or ea81 just throw in a ej22 or ej25 or franken motor and call it good. The injectors can cost more than a ej22 plus all the mods wouldn't be worth it cost wise compared to what a newer motor would offer. Considering it already has most of the stuff you want plus you can just use a lap top as the ecm to control everything.

 

You need to reread the OP this was a (money is no object) theory on the possible applications of power on the EA82 motor. We all know (and god is it flamed enough on here) that a more modern motor has more capability of power. that is not what this thread is about. it's about what could you do (money aside) to an ea82 to make it perform.

 

And a set of normal bosch automotive injectors can be had at any salvage yard and cleaned cheap... how is that more expensive than a full motor? I'm talking about motor cycle throttle bodies not TBI units. and actually a small GM ones would be easier than the bike ones and can again be had at a salvage yard, as can the coil pack. I could probably pick up the parts from any yard for under $40 and have the twin intakes made for around 200 from any decent metal fab shop. the only hard part is synchronizing the throttles and their are parts out there that do just that for running dual carbs for harleys.

[turbosubarubrat]

You need to reread the OP this was a (money is no object) theory on the possible applications of power on the EA82 motor. We all know (and god is it flamed enough on here) that a more modern motor has more capability of power. that is not what this thread is about. it's about what could you do (money aside) to an ea82 to make it perform.

 

And a set of normal bosch automotive injectors can be had at any salvage yard and cleaned cheap... how is that more expensive than a full motor? I'm talking about motor cycle throttle bodies not TBI units. and actually a small GM ones would be easier than the bike ones and can again be had at a salvage yard, as can the coil pack. I could probably pick up the parts from any yard for under $40 and have the twin intakes made for around 200 from any decent metal fab shop. the only hard part is synchronizing the throttles and their are parts out there that do just that for running dual carbs for harleys.

I  can pick up a complete motor up for $150 at the u pull it i go to and if money was no aspect you wouldn't buy used injecters so thats about $400 or more for the new ones. It would need custom heads, monifold, pistons, engine control, cooling system, ect. it would eventually add up to a cost were you could buy a sti drive train to put under a 3rd gen and still not know if it will blow up a mile down the road. 

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

... if money was no aspect you wouldn't buy used injecters so thats about $400 or more for the new ones. It would need custom heads, monifold, pistons, engine control, cooling system, ect. it would eventually add up to a cost were you could buy a sti drive train to put under ... 

 

If so, Eventually the "Ultimate EA82" will become onto another "EJ Swap" one...

 

Let me show you an Example of an Ultimate EA82 Body with EJ Swap build:

 

~► http://www.ultimates...o-build/page-13

 

Kind Regards.

[turbosubarubrat]

What im getting at is the ultimate ea82 would be simular to this http://www.ultimates...anagement-swap/ but a lot more custom and expensive. Essentially you would be building a ea engine into a ej engine which would cost about the same as a sti/wrx drive train swap much like Nicos plus it would be a lot more reliable. I have to admit it would be a really awesome build and i would subscribe to it but it would be unrealistic. There also would be the fact if you crack a custom head you have to make a new one since aluminum welds don't hold well especialy if the orignal casting failed but if you have a sti/wrx motor you can just buy a new one. I don't have a problem with the ea82 motors since there very reliable (my dad has had 7 of them non turbo) but the life expectancy of a motor like what im thinking would be short, so why mess with a motor that is perfectly happy lasting 350k + with out a rebuild if well maintained.

Edited by turbosubarubrat, 21 November 2013 - 12:25 AM.

[CarpeNoctem]

I  can pick up a complete motor up for $150 at the u pull it i go to and if money was no aspect you wouldn't buy used injecters so thats about $400 or more for the new ones. It would need custom heads, monifold, pistons, engine control, cooling system, ect. it would eventually add up to a cost were you could buy a sti drive train to put under a 3rd gen and still not know if it will blow up a mile down the road. 

 

first on injectors I was using example of cost cutting. but still your values are way off

 

83lbs/hr 850cc injectors for highly modded engines $93.50 for a set of 4 while you'd need only 2 and they are available to purchase individually so it's even cheaper still.

http://www.fiveomoto...nesis-350z-370z

 

and those are much more high end than this motor could ever dream of handling no matter the mods. 

 

Now again. This was the original poster asking us to spitball ideas or "bench race" so he he could pick through ideas and make his own design based on the EA82 not any other motor. To come in and say "that'd be more expensive than an EJ" is pointless because it not what he asked for. he didn't as for EJ opinions he wanted ideas for EA82 motors. The point behind my layout was to use the engine to it's maximum potential (externally as i'm still getting used to subaru flat 4s) by giving it more power and the most throttle response I could devise while leaving cost as a non entity.

 

Is it as gloyale put it "polishing a turd" ? Hell yes it is.  

 

Is an EJ swap more cost efficient and capable of more power much easier? again Hell yes it is

 

but the name of the thread was  "Ultimate EA82 build" not "what should I do for more power?" this marks my 66th post and I've seen more posts of people trying to force ej's where their not asked than my total posts put together. people know the ej is easier, people have it all over this forum to read. we don't need to preach it anymore.

[86 Wonder Wedge]

I'll also say this is a needed topic mostly because of the lack of available cheap EJ motors around these parts. (Pretty much anywhere that is NOT the PNW) Around Ohio, the CHEAPEST EJ motor is a core EJ25D for $200. Oh, you want a running one? How about an EJ18 with 250K. $400. An OBDII EJ22 with 190K? $650. And that's WITHOUT the accessories. Or flywheel. And I have to pull it myself.

 

The point is, sometimes an EJ swap is just not something people want to/can invest in. Especially when insurance companies will pay AT MOST 1500 for an EA82 incase something happens. You've already lost money and now are without a car.

 

For the topic, however, an ULTIMATE EA82 build...

 

From looking at FHI's attempts and history, the availability of parts and interchangeability, the better (best?) option might be to seeking a FI path.

 

Since the heads are the weakest link and cannot draw more than a certain amount, we're going to have to ram some more air down it's throats.

 

Supercharged (SC12 or 14 or even an Aisin blower as came stock on the Subaru kei cars, or something with a divorced BPV)

meth injection

EA82 MPFI heads, intake (non-spider), injectors and sensors

Relocated TB

Headstuds

Turbo ECU? (Megaquirt would probably work best)

2x core EA82 radiator

Oil cooler

(and divorced trans cooler for the auto guys)

colder plugs

 

The trick to long EA82 life is cooling and knock control. Since the EA82's head cooling is NOT the best, we can help offset the head/combustion temps with meth and fuel-cooling. Most efficient? No. But lots of fun, plenty of torque for around town and hills and should hold together.

[86BRATMAN]

You know that injector link is per injector pricing right?

[CarpeNoctem]

You know that injector link is per Injector pricing right?

Really? How do you buy a flow matched "set" of 1?

[CarpeNoctem]

Wonder wedge you and I have like minds. Though I admit a hatred for meth injection as its another constant purchase item. As far a cooling goes thing how old these motors are. How many people get the heads professionally cleaned to clear out the cooling passages in the hottest part of the motor where calification is most likely? That'decent boost. Nice thing about those toyota accesory mounted roots superchargers (which are availible in aftermarket too now being made in an frs kit) is they allow use of an intercooler as well. That gives oppertunity for air to air or air to water intercoolers.



How much gain is there to be had from port work? I'd want to start with mpfi heads and have the ports done. I wonder if opening up the exhaust port outlet a bit and smoothing it out a bit would net anything. Unshrouding the valves massage the ports could fix the flow a good deal. And custom machine shops are low on work right now going into winter.

A proper mandrel bent header with a low flow cat instead of swapping stock parts around. If someone welds an exhaust and an intake could be done easily and cheaply enough after having intake flanges cut or cutting the stock ones off an manifold (cut it free above the flange and have it milled to what you actually need). And then just but a gm tb flange which is easily had, as are the injector bungs. That gives better flow and removes the unneeeded provisions on the intake and gives room for better control as you can get various sized TBs that fit the same flange.

I don't know if ARP makes bolt kits for this engine but I know they will let you order to your own specs. At least they did years back for mme on a couple occasions. A full new set of hardware would be nice and head studs would make in car servicing easier.

[Gloyale]

How much gain is there to be had from port work? I'd want to start with mpfi heads and have the ports done. I wonder if opening up the exhaust port outlet a bit and smoothing it out a bit would net anything. Unshrouding the valves massage the ports could fix the flow a good deal. And custom machine shops are low on work right now going into winter.

A proper mandrel bent header with a low flow cat instead of swapping stock parts around. If someone welds an exhaust and an intake could be done easily and cheaply enough after having intake flanges cut or cutting the stock ones off an manifold (cut it free above the flange and have it milled to what you actually need). And then just but a gm tb flange which is easily had, as are the injector bungs. That gives better flow and removes the unneeeded provisions on the intake and gives room for better control as you can get various sized TBs that fit the same flange.
 

 

 

Most of the Dual port heads were on turbos and are cracked in the exhaust ports.  Hard to find heads, likely to crack.....hard to find a replacement.  I would think SPFI single port heads a better option just because you can get them still, and if one needs replaced it's easier.

 

As for intake.......you can't simply cut and weld the old flanges.  EA engines use the intake as a coolant crossover.   Might be possible with a Spider intake use the lower parts to act as crossover, and the flanges at the runners could be modified.

 

No point.  Totally dead platform for performance.

[86 Wonder Wedge]

Most of the Dual port heads were on turbos and are cracked in the exhaust ports.  Hard to find heads, likely to crack.....hard to find a replacement.  I would think SPFI single port heads a better option just because you can get them still, and if one needs replaced it's easier.

 

As for intake.......you can't simply cut and weld the old flanges.  EA engines use the intake as a coolant crossover.   Might be possible with a Spider intake use the lower parts to act as crossover, and the flanges at the runners could be modified.

 

No point.  Totally dead platform for performance.

 

I must also caveat my statement by saying I only think playing with an EA82 should be done knowing full well you are probably going to lose money and spend more in the process. This should also not be your "I need to go the hospital right now so please start and drive" transportation. This is only a play-thing. If you want a reliable, powerful and easy to maintain platform, the EJ is the only LOGICAL way to go.

 

With that being said, I still think the EA82 has good bones and can stand some higher-stringing. If anything else, it's a good platform to experiment, play and a good reason to crawl around the junkyard looking for things that normally shouldn't be applied to this situation. Worst case, you learn something in the process and have some fun in the process (even if you do spend some money. Afterall, isn't that is what money is for?)

 

And carpe: I don't like having to monitor one more fluid level or buying another fluid, but the real-estate up front for heat exchangers is crowded anyway (assuming we keep the condenser, some of us like quick defrosts.. ) and the dosage is variable and you can always dump more in case a need arises (like a spiking EGT).

 

And the MPFI heads/manifold is mostly for the individual injectors and the fact they are close to the port (meaning we have to worry less about high SC discharge temps causing a detonation in the intake).

 

This COULD be done with the SPFI, assuming there is a way to seal the pod chamber against vacuum leaks and then positive pressure. I've even thought about removing the butterfly from the TB (just leaving the housing) and running the MPFI TB infront of the SC for better response and a real vacuum source (for brake booster, vac reference and HVAC controls).

 

Can also throw meth/alcohol injectors above each runner... hmm..

[Craigar]

Interesting post and I think the EA82 is a good engine to work and play with, I don't agree (yet?) with Uberoos post about the EJ22 having 2X the power - 

 

By my rough calculations from looking at each graph

EA82 = .5*79 hp*3400 RPM = 134000 hp*rpm

EJ22 = .5*110 hp*3800 RPM + .5*110 hp*1000 RPM = 264000 hp*rpm

 

which is roughly 2x as much as EA82,makes sense because an EJ22 IS 2X more powerful than a EA82.  

 

it looks to me like he is adding the dyno power of 2 different rpms then divided by 2 (.5)  for the EJ to get an average - but he divided the EA by 2 also! - and it has no other hp* rpm to average with? Almost implies the EA82 has no horsepower at 1000 rpm -- and I really doubt the EJ22 is producing 110hp at 1000 rpm - for starters seems it would hammer the bearings.. I would really like to see the dyno graphs, but the links are dead?  

 

I see it being more like 1.5X,which makes sense cause it has a 12% longer stroke and 11% larger bore, with total displacement of 22% larger - and has 4 valves per cylinder, moly pistons that are 100 grams lighter and higher compression.

 

So it makes since for EJ22 to have more horsepower AT HIGHER RPM beyond the bore  and stroke increase because it's a much better aspirated engine with 4 valves per cylinder etc. - but IMHO up to 4500 rpm the EA82 does quite well in it's own right. Anyways here's an image of the 2 motors side by side from Wikipedia - showing the EJ22 can produce 50% more HP/torgue IN THE HIGHER RPM range. But "tourque-wise" the EJ22 produces only 37% more torque  at 4800rpm, compared to the EA82 at 3200 rpm

 

https://en.wikipedia...ubaru_EA_engine

https://en.wikipedia...ubaru_EJ_engine

 

Edited by Craigar, 19 August 2016 - 05:54 AM.

[MR_Loyale]

I laughed thinking to myself about future engine threads. "What is the ultimate EJ build?" to which the answer will be "Just FA it"

[ferp420]

I've had good luck modding the ea82 based on driving the ea82t and the impreza with the 2.2 I'm wondering if the ej22 had 30" tires if they would be closer matched I'm not sure if the HP went up a hole lot but its got mad torque most of the way through the powerband for my version of the ultamite ea82 i started at the begining remove the stock water separator /snorkel it only has a 1" or so opening then there needs to be more room for the air and fuel to mix before it turns the corner I used a 1" piece of aluminum and coned it out around a inch between the throttle body and the manifold  then opened the manifold to match I ported the manifold as far as I could I removed the lip that creates the swirl and made it tumble the air why would swirl the air and then separate it a few mm later I added 1" spacers between the manifold and I he heads so it would have a larger volume of premixed air and fuel available when the throttle opens then I ported the heads did the valves opened up!the exhaust ports and polished them i didn't do a very good job on the polishing though and then I ground down the weld on the inside of the exhaust manifold the weld was around 1\4 all the way around its not a ej2.2 but I would say its more than a ej18 one of the lifter took a dump and next thing the rod bearing on that cylinder took a dump so its getting a rebuild right now but I spent around $100 total on the first build this time I'm gonna go all the way and get a rering kit and new lifters I figure I'll go with the ej2.2 swap after that but I'm just not ready to give up on the little ea82 just yet

[Craigar]

Wow,  ferp420 sounds like a nice motor! I would be very grateful to see some images of these manifold mods, hopefully "before and after" . I realy like the lower rpm torque this motor makes - also coupled to the  (at least 500 pounds less than a comparable Legacy) lighter Loyale it feels really nice to me. Thanks for the pretty simple "doable" ideas

[ferp420]

There's a guy on the board machinesit  or something like that he makes some awesome spacers they put mine to shame he was rerouting his coolant manifold to get the heat out of the intake thats a great idea also probably work even better I carved mine out of a solid piece of aluminum with hand tools and a drill press so there not real pretty here's a link to the build thread

http://www.ultimates...e-body-spacers/

Edited by ferp420, 23 August 2016 - 12:38 PM.

[ferp420]

I don't know how useful it would be on a stock rig unless you live in the mountains or tow a lot or something there would hqve to be a reason to do it there Isent much gain up top where the stock set up is designed to Run at its a great option for wheelers or maybe going na on a turbo rig because of the gearing stock gearing I think would just spin the tires ALSO consider the decrease in reliability its now pownding the lower end instead is slowly ramping up the power over the rpm range I don't know how long a strong lower end would hold up but my old short block lasted around 20000 miles I probably could have doubled it if I used good lifters I'm guessing it will hold up a good 80-100k with a fresh bottom end and solid valve train that's still a lot of miles but considering these run around 300k and up that's a huge decrease in expected life span at best would I do it again hay yes I am

[Caboobaroo]

Being someone that has blown up multiple EA82T, I would have been one to also say it would be better to EJ swap it. No point in trying to build the EA82T when the EJ swap is so common.


That would have been a few years ago. Now I'm in the process of building a decent street, NA ER27. I was lucky enough to pick up someone else's parts stash that had some performance parts for the 2.7 but it's just an EA82 with 2 more cylinders. My current build, which isn't near completion, I'm shooting for 250 crank hp, starting with 145 crank hp. So far, I have a block that had the cylinders bored, line bored and decked, Wiseco pistons from Ram Engines, Delta 272 torque cams, OEM head gaskets and related gaskets and a clean up done on the castings of the cylinder heads. Because im staying NA (about 10.2:1 cr), didnt really see a need fot head studs. I also have a OS Giken twin disc clutch that will have the flywheel redrilled from the EJ pattern to the EA/ER pattern along with a custom bellhousing to accept the EJ 5 speed. There is a welder local to me (Steve @ Inferno Fab) that said he could make me a custom header. I already have an extra set of flanges for that.

Still need to tune it so I decided on a MegaSquirt 2 v3.0 from DIYAutotune.com. with this setup, I will be running a Ford EDIS6 ignition system using an aluminum crank pulley with pickup wheel on it. Eventually, I plan to use the optical pickup inside the distributor as a cam position sensor. For help with tuning the MS system, I scored a cheap Innovative LM1 wide band 02 system that will work in conjunction with the MegaSquirt. Injectors are almost the same as Nissan so I can upgrade sizes to pretty much any size I need.

I could go on about this build and will do a write up once I get it completed. It's a slow road for me as I have other Subarus needing modications and parts. The joys of owning a fleet of cars, hahaha!