Sometimes ABS sucks

[Qman]

I respectfully disagree.

 

It is not nearly so cut and dry.

 

I am not talking about situation where a person is going too fast.

 

I am talking about when someone is rolling slowly down a slippery hill, with cars or some obstyacle at the bottom. WITH ABS, the slope of the hill is enough to keep the cars momentum, while a wheel locks (from very very little peddle input), Well now the ABS takes over and keeps the wheels from stopping......allowing you to roll on into whatever is in front of you.......even though you are desperately MASHING the brakes to the floor.

 

That is the problem. People try to override the ABS by mashing on the pedal. By using lower gears in both a automatic and manual trans you can scrub off speed before you are in a bad situation. It is called defensive driving. Our society as a whole seems to have forgetten how to do that.

 

I'm not talikin about skiding, I mean rolling.......

 

 

C'mon.......it DOES say it right in the owners manual.......Subaru KNOWS that ABS is not so good for snow/ice.

 

But Marketing Surveys show people will pay more and feel warm and squishy about it just for the false sense of security those 3 little letters provide.

 

People have been convinced that ABS, airbags and even seat belts are the end all of safety equipment. Every situation is different.

 

 

The manual does state that. My take on it is that they tell you that to slow you down. Not to disable it. By telling you that your brakes system may not work as well in snow and ice they are covering themselves from lawsuit.

[CNY_Dave]

The manual does state that. My take on it is that they tell you that to slow you down. Not to disable it. By telling you that your brakes system may not work as well in snow and ice they are covering themselves from lawsuit.

 

There is a hill near my house.

 

If you go over 10mph and the abs 'enables', in wet snow the ABS will keep the car from stopping, drive, 1, or neutral with my H6.

 

Without ABS the safe speed on that hill is 20mph or so, and by safe I mean you can stop when/where you want, immediately.

 

With the ABS, you will continue down the hill until you kill the key, yank the ebrake, or go through the stop sign at the bottom of the hill. No technique works except getting the ABS out of the loop.

 

ABS is a great tool, but at some point the best designed system has unintended consequences, and you have to know how to deal with that fact.

 

I'm in the go easy, go slower, use the ABS for the good it does, and know the downside (and know how to deal with it) camp.

 

 

Dave

[bheinen74]

There is a hill near my house.

 

If you go over 10mph and the abs 'enables', in wet snow the ABS will keep the car from stopping, drive, 1, or neutral with my H6.

 

Without ABS the safe speed on that hill is 20mph or so, and by safe I mean you can stop when/where you want, immediately.

 

With the ABS, you will continue down the hill until you kill the key, yank the ebrake, or go through the stop sign at the bottom of the hill. No technique works except getting the ABS out of the loop.

 

ABS is a great tool, but at some point the best designed system has unintended consequences, and you have to know how to deal with that fact.

 

I'm in the go easy, go slower, use the ABS for the good it does, and know the downside (and know how to deal with it) camp.

 

 

Dave

I live by that hill too, and with ABS i will be hitting a truck on the road as i finally come to a stop once the car gets to the wet non icy road right after my icy street on a hill stopsign. the hill is ice and cannot stop with ABS.

No ABS, i stop and live. Everyday that street is icy.

Once the spring time arrives I will reenable ABS. Its good in non-icy condiions.

People need to slow down, and be aware the FACT is ABS requires longer stopping distances in snow and ice, than non ABS car. read the manual, and never use cruise on ice.

[bgambino]

bgambino, wally, grossgary and Gloyale,

 

Your posts are accurate. My original point still stands. Disabling the ABS by switches or faux fuses is against the law.

 

Driving conditions should dictate how a person drives not the safety equipment. I may have misrepresented myself as an advocate for ABS. I am not. I remove the ABS from the race cars. I know how to disable it for rallycross. As stated earlier 97% of drivers benefit from it. In part because they drive the conditions not the gas pedal.

 

There are conditions where everything is bad. If we debated every one of them we would miss a lot of things far more important.

 

Just remember, Darwin will take care of the problem eventually.

 

Q

Thanks for your reasonable logical response...you are 100% correct...in 98% of winter driving cases, if you are travelling at a safe speed, ABS is a benefit.

 

(of course, as for your Darwin comment...we part was 180 degrees...there is someone far more powerful than he who will take care of all things...but that is better left for some other forum....)

[wally]

Q

Thanks for your reasonable logical response...you are 100% correct...in 98% of winter driving cases, if you are travelling at a safe speed, ABS is a benefit.

 

especially since 98% of driving involves driving, rather than braking. :-\

 

i will continue to disagree about four wheel abs in subies for winter driving. it isn't safe. i might buy into it if only the rear wheels were anti-lock, but with all four wheels equipped with the feature, normal winter driving becomes much more risky than when using a non-abs equipped vehicle. 25 years of winter driving without abs has convinced me of this.

 

i didn't disable mine with any fake fuses or a switch. i just unplugged the unit. the light on the dash is lit. i run snow tires in winter (hankooks and now winterforce) and all-season the rest of the year.

 

another reason i dislike the abs is that the driver's side front sensor popped off on a road trip, destroying the axle boot, since the dangling sensor kept hitting it. that didn't further endear the subie abs system to me.

 

for dry pavement, perhaps even wet pavement, the abs is probably better for most drivers.

 

wally

[Qman]

I live by that hill too, and with ABS i will be hitting a truck on the road as i finally come to a stop once the car gets to the wet non icy road right after my icy street on a hill stopsign. the hill is ice and cannot stop with ABS.

No ABS, i stop and live. Everyday that street is icy.

Once the spring time arrives I will reenable ABS. Its good in non-icy condiions.

People need to slow down, and be aware the FACT is ABS requires longer stopping distances in snow and ice, than non ABS car. read the manual, and never use cruise on ice.

 

When did you move to NY? Otherwise, you can not "live by that hill too".

[MilesFox]

I did the RPM challenge (closed course event) the days after christmas. first round was in the silver RS without ABS, on regular street tires. 2nd run was in the blue RS with snow tires, and ABS.

 

The blue RS got going, but would not stop. I hit a cone because the ABS prevented intended lock-up for my turning maneuver. I was not aware this car had ABS until that moment.

 

in essence, i momentarily lost control due to functioning ABS

[Gloyale]

Disabling the ABS by switches or faux fuses is against the law.

 

 

I believe that is speculation my friend.

 

It definately would vary state to state.

 

If you want to go down that road, and have the new laws passed, EVERY SINGLE MODIFICATION WE MAKE TO NON-COSMETIC SYSTEMS OF THE VEHICHLE IS ILLEGAL. In such that it alters factory emmisions and saftey equipment. (remember the laws apply only to MODIFICATION, regardless of whether it is an improvement) Say goodbye to independant tire stores, from now on.....dealer only........Yeah no thanks

 

Remember that when you are about to put stainless brake lines on your 2000 RS. C'mon

 

 

At any rate. The title of the thread is SOMETIMES ABS SUCKS. Definately true.

 

Simple solution is to wire in a fuse and a 2 lengths of wire with spades on the end to a switch. Stick the spades into the ABS fuseholder, and it can now be disarmed (different than "DISABLED") momentarily when nessecary.

Edited January 4, 2010 by Gloyale

[JohnKos]

Simple solution is to wire in a fuse and a 2 lengths of wire with spades on the end to a switch. Stick the spades into the ABS fuseholder, and it can now be disarmed (different than "DISABLED") momentarily when nessecary.

 

I was testing my switch in the company parking lot last snow. The switch killed the ABS but didn't turn it back on. i had to turn the car off and restart it to enable the ABS.

[CNY_Dave]

I was testing my switch in the company parking lot last snow. The switch killed the ABS but didn't turn it back on. i had to turn the car off and restart it to enable the ABS.

 

That fits with what I have heard elsewhere.

 

 

Dave

[robm]

This makes no sense. Subarus have superior traction and handling capabilities in snow and ice conditions because of their AWD design. But, because of their ABS design, they must be driven SLOWER than other, less capable cars on the road, because they cannot stop as well?

 

I am not recommending that Subarus be driven fast in poor conditions. I know all too well that it is very easy to drive AWD vehicles too fast for the conditons, and not be aware of it until it is too late. With the traction and handling, it is very easy to go way faster than is safe. To have that safe speed further restricted is ridiculous.

 

There has to be a better way.

[forester2002s]

I sure hope that someone from Subaru has been reading this thread.

And that they take some appropriate action.

[bheinen74]

.........

 

There has to be a better way.

 

2 wheel ABS sounds best. Is there a way to "T" the hoses for say, front only lines, or say, back only lines coming off the ABS pump so they are essentually not being "pumped", but with having 2 wheel ABS still work?

[Qman]

2 wheel ABS sounds best. Is there a way to "T" the hoses for say, front only lines, or say, back only lines coming off the ABS pump so they are essentually not being "pumped", but with having 2 wheel ABS still work?

 

Lock up the steering? Not a chance.

[CNY_Dave]

2 wheel ABS sounds best. Is there a way to "T" the hoses for say, front only lines, or say, back only lines coming off the ABS pump so they are essentually not being "pumped", but with having 2 wheel ABS still work?

 

I'm sure you could, but there could be unintended consequences- aside from the obvious consequence of the brake pedal becoming a 'steer or brake but not both' switch.

 

If you want to turn off the ABS so you can do 'performance winter driving' or drive off-road, that's one thing, if you just are worrying about that one time where the ABS won't quite let you stop, this would be serious overkill.

 

There are other ways to deal with the lesser situation.

 

 

Dave

[bheinen74]

My "other Soobs" did not need snow tires, just good new all seasons.

 

I am getting snows for my OBS tonight, following the advice of others, and what i know is right to do.

[Pierobon]

One might add a "salter" to the car, same way train locomotives "sand" the rails to avoid slippage.

This way the salt would melt the ice and let the tires hit the tarmac to break and stop.

(this was a joke of course)

[johnceggleston]

talk about a thread from the past.

 

i doubt many folks are going to read it from the beginning.

but a thread on another forum triggered a new thought.

 

ABS is miss named.

it is not a braking system.

it was not designed as a braking system.

it does not stop you quicker in bad weather.

it does not stop you faster in good weather.

it dies not stop you sooner in the snow,

or faster on ice.

 

it is a STEERING system.

it was designed to let you steer in ALL situations,

wet, dry, snow, mud, sand, dirt, gravel,  or ice,

when accelerating or when standing on the brake pedal.

no matter what the conditions, situation, how hard you brake,

or how much driving experience you have,

it allows you to steer your car when braking.

 

IT IS NOT A BRAKING SYSTEM.

it is a steering system.

i think they should have named it Automated Steering System, or A.S.S.

imho.

Edited January 16, 2014 by johnceggleston

[Olnick]

Now that's funny. 

 

Hmmm, come to think of it, my old Legacy has an A.S.S.!