Sorry if this is old news...but....

[rxleone]

...have any of you guys seen the new Subaru boxer they're bringing out?? Check this out and this.

 

Seriously....is this new or have I been under a rock for too long??

 

 

Mods, if this is old news, you're more than welcome to delete this thread

Edited September 29, 2010 by rxleone

[1-3-2-4]

So that's the non diesel engine?

[Inane Cathode]

I can't help but wonder why there's a trend recently to make every new design look as much like a transforming fighting robot as possible.

 

Also, that's a little weird that they're stroking it but reducing the bore. Seems kinda backwards for what everyone else is doing these days. Woohoo for torque though

 

What are those dealies on the cam ends, is that some kind of vvt?

[1-3-2-4]

I rather have a longer stroke then that large bore.. save more gas by doing that but given how the motor is it's hard to do so.

[GeneralDisorder]

It certainly doesn't strike me as the gigantic change these articles report it to be - VVT, a serp-belt, some strange water pump jigery-pokery, a timing chain..... and they stroked it..... big fat deal. This is nothing like the change from EA to EJ. .

 

Reporters and marketing types. They would like you to beleive the whole world was "new and improved" on a yearly basis. I'm sure the same evil marketing tactics were used from EA81 to EA82. Even though we all know the EA82 is just an EA81 with some OHC's clabbered onto the top of the heads in some engineer's spare time.

 

Looks like a whole bunch of extra crap to fail - all for no increase in HP, a slight increase in torque, and a whopping 1 MPG increase.

 

Smoke and mirrors for the masses. And us poor mechanics have to deal with all that electro-mechanical VVT garbage when it fails. Joe public will not like the price of those parts......

 

GD

Edited September 29, 2010 by GeneralDisorder

[Subruise]

It certainly doesn't strike me as the gigantic change these articles report it to be - VVT, a serp-belt, some strange water pump jigery-pokery, a timing chain..... and they stroked it..... big fat deal. This is nothing like the change from EA to EJ. .

 

Reporters and marketing types. They would like you to beleive the whole world was "new and improved" on a yearly basis. I'm sure the same evil marketing tactics were used from EA81 to EA82. Even though we all know the EA82 is just an EA81 with some OHC's clabbered onto the top of the heads of an EA81 in some engineer's spare time.

 

Looks like a whole bunch of extra crap to fail - all for no increase in HP, a slight increase in torque, and a whopping 1 MPG increase.

 

Smoke and mirrors for the masses. And us poor mechanics have to deal with all that electro-mechanical VVT garbage when it fails. Joe public will not like the price of those parts......

 

GD

 

 

joe public, one of my favorite subhumans songs. 1mpg is like the diff between having one or two 1/4 pounders for lunch.

 

RV

[vasy]

From the owner maintenance point of view, the top-mounted oil filter (the black thing next to the yellow oil cap) has an advantage. One can change the filter without crawling under the car. The filter is mounted upside down with a tray to catch spilled oil when removing the filter. I personally welcome this feature.

 

The externally-mounted water pump as indicated by the lowest pulley on the left (driver's) side provides easier replacement. The timing cover can be left alone when replacing the water pump. Assuming the timing chain and its related components do not fail, its cover never needs to be removed.

 

However, the single extra long accessory belt must be pretty pricey.

 

I can only see 3 idler pulleys, compared to 4 (including tensioner roller) for my 2.5. So from the maintenance point, the new design is more maintenance-friendly. It's also much easier to replace these pulleys on the new engine.

[CNY_Dave]

The biggest change- how the heads are cooled- doesn't show.

 

I haven't seen what the changes are, but supposedly...

 

 

Dave

[eppoh]

The biggest change- how the heads are cooled- doesn't show.

 

I haven't seen what the changes are, but supposedly...

 

 

Dave

 

 

Well the cat sitting directly below the engine and the right head might give you a hint... not encouraging.

[The Dude]

Just the thought of a new DOHC 2.5 makes my skin crawl. I still remember the head gasket blowing money pit that was the old DOHC 2.5. So, does this new engine at least have a semi-closed deck, or is it deja vu all over again? Also, will this engine use regular gas?

 

This new engine is going in the 2011 Forester. That means the replacement date on my 06 Forester has been moved up to at least 2014. Past experience with the old DOHC 2.5 has indicated to me that Subaru has absolutely no problem with using their customers as unpaid beta testers. To those who buy the 2011 Forester, I salute you!

 

I would imagine that the Subaru facility that manufacturers diesel engine is running at full capacity keeping European and other markets happy.

Due to high petrol prices, diesel is very popular in Europe. That's not the case in the US. Only a small percentage of Subarus sold in the US would be diesel. It's not worth the expense in inventory, advertising, and training for Subaru to market a diesel in the US.

Even with much higher gas prices in Europe, the more expensive diesel engine only does a little better than "break even". Google "dual mass flywheels", diesels are not without problems of their own.

[Fairtax4me]

What are those dealies on the cam ends, is that some kind of vvt?

Those are actuators for the VVT. I believe they control oil pressure to the advance mechanism.

 

Timing chain is a plus.

 

The cat just beneath the engine will be a sludge maker, just like the Saab 9-3. The cat is too close to the oil pan, the heat cooks the oil which deteriorates it faster and causes it to clog the pickup and other oil passages. I know the idea is that the cat warms up faster, decreasing emissions at startup, but it's a fatal flaw for the 9-3. We'll just have to see how that works out for Subaru.

[rxleone]

I am kinda surprised at why they are doing it - what benefit is it really going to have to the average consumer? +1 MPG isn't really going to do anything for their sales - at least not in the States I believe. No power gains....a whole heap more gizmos to go wrong....yep, Subaru is dying.

 

For serious though, has anyone seen the new sedan WRX STi? Quite possibly the ugliest Subaru ever brought out. Subaru is losing it's quirks (Think the classic pillarless windows - they're gone) and becoming far too mainstream for my liking. Guess I'll be sticking to my good old 89' Legacy for quite some time.

[Subruise]

can anyone think of a good reason (dont say,"it fits better") to put the exhaust so close to the oil pan? REAL dumb if you ask me. BRING BACK THE BUGEYES!!!!!

[bheinen74]

Subaru "had" to come up with a new design since the engineers "never" fixed the headgasket issue on the ej25....

 

Hopefully the engineers spent detail on the headgasket/reliability issue on this new design. Who care for power, its the longevity that matters most to me, along with efficiency. I hope its offered with dual range trans, not full time awd, but a switch to make it awd.

 

External water pump, great. Just like the early ea71 ea81 engines, same location, easy to change. Timing chain not as reliable as a geared timing set only, but much more reliable than a standard t-belt.

 

I see a much more reliable engine, and sure that the power numbers will get up there in second year/third year modifications. MPG can be achieved with that awd switch to make it fwd for mileage.

 

Hats off to those who purchase the 2011 fozzy.

 

Hope its closed deck.

[Arty]

I am kinda surprised at why they are doing it - what benefit is it really going to have to the average consumer? +1 MPG isn't really going to do anything for their sales - at least not in the States I believe. No power gains....a whole heap more gizmos to go wrong....yep, Subaru is dying.

 

For serious though, has anyone seen the new sedan WRX STi? Quite possibly the ugliest Subaru ever brought out. Subaru is losing it's quirks (Think the classic pillarless windows - they're gone) and becoming far too mainstream for my liking. Guess I'll be sticking to my good old 89' Legacy for quite some time.

 

Are you kidding me?! I just stood in front of one at the dealership today and was mesmerized! The rear wing looks goofy as can be, but the aesthetics look so much better to me. You didn't think the 2008 and 2009 Impreza was ugly? The things look like Kias. And those STUPID, STUPID clear tail lights. STUPID. And what were they thinking with the center console?!

 

Sorry, just my opinion... not saying you're wrong. Just man... those Impezas were ugly and those tail lights were STUPID!!!

[GeneralDisorder]

Subaru "had" to come up with a new design since the engineers "never" fixed the headgasket issue on the ej25....

 

I would tend to disagreee with that - the replacement head gaskets for the EJ25D are basically a "thick" turbo gasket and once installed correctly..... well I haven't heard of a repeat failure on any of the MLS stuff.

 

Timing chain not as reliable as a geared timing set only, but much more reliable than a standard t-belt.

 

I agree to an extent. But how many broken EJ belts have you actually seen? How often is it even asked about beyond speculation on this board? I can't remember the last time I actually saw a post about a belt breaking and I have personally seen seized idlers and water pumps that DID NOT break the belt yet I have not come across an actual failure personally. It's not really an issue since even with a chain you are going to have to be in there for *something* every 100k (seals, water pump - chain tensioner - those silly VVT actuators.... etc) . Since the belts last just as long - it's really a moot point IMO. Belts are quieter and cheaper than chains when they *do* need replaced though.

 

I'm really not conviced of the superiority of chains these days - I think that the pendulum is swinging that way because consumers feel better about chains right now. The "belt interval" has become a marketing albatross even though it hasn't *really* been an issue for over a decade. Reliability has never been better for timing belts than it is right now. The "belt technology" has cought up with engine longevity. Chains had to get there as well - heck the 350 SBC in my '69 GMC had a worn out timing chain at 100k. Looked worse than any EJ belt setup I've seen at 100k. The "chain technology" just wasn't there back in those days.

 

GD

Edited September 30, 2010 by GeneralDisorder

[hankosolder2]

Looks like a whole bunch of extra crap to fail - all for no increase in HP, a slight increase in torque, and a whopping 1 MPG increase.

 

Smoke and mirrors for the masses. And us poor mechanics have to deal with all that electro-mechanical VVT garbage when it fails. Joe public will not like the price of those parts......

 

GD

 

Remember that peak HP and torque numbers are less important for real-world vehicle performance than the area under the torque curve. (i.e. VVT and other tweaks to the engine may make the torque peak broader, not just make the peak higher.) It might be more instructive to compare quarter mile times of the new car vs. the old (adjusting for the inevitable increase in weight of the new car )

 

I think the thing with timing chains is that the failure mode is more often noise & slop than breakage with no audible warning. They also wear strictly by use and mileage and are unaffected by age... i.e. a low mileage older car with a chain should be fine, whereas a timing belt equipped car still needs to have it changed on time due to the rubber deteriorating. Finally, there's usually just a single front crankshaft seal (which, depending on the design can be changed w/o pulling any of the timing gear apart) as opposed to multiple cam seals, the failure of which can hose the belt.

 

As with anything, it depends on the quality of the materials and the soundness of the design. Time will tell.

 

Nathan

[Subaru_dude]

Hell, have a muffler shop relocate that cat. Sludge problem solved (unless there's just nowhere to move it to).

 

I'll be sticking to my EJ22 Outback. 225,000 and going strong.

[Fairtax4me]

Hell, have a muffler shop relocate that cat. Sludge problem solved (unless there's just nowhere to move it to).

 

How many "normal" drivers would think do to that? Much less pay for it?

And no there might not be a good place for it under the car. Heat is an issue whether it's under the engine or under the floor. Cars are designed with heat shields around the exhaust system, and rerouting the system means moving or adding new heat shields so you don't melt or catch other things on the car on fire. There may not be clearance under any other areas of the car for the stock cat to fit, which would mean buying a new one. Which come to think of it, Federal law (EPA) prohibits the installation of used catalytic converters on any vehicle. You might run into trouble finding a shop that is willing to remove and reinstall the same cat.

You would also have to lengthen the harness for the two O2 sensors that are mounted to the cat.

 

Not to mention warranty issues, potential problems passing emissions inspection... Probably more of a pita than it's worth.

[WJM]

...no increase in HP, a slight increase in torque, and a whopping 1 MPG increase.

 

GD

 

Thats the most disappointing part to me.

 

What bothers me the most is the belt driving the water pump now. At about 60k~80k miles, customers will stop coming to the dealer and start doing things themselves, overlook the belt, the belt breaks and they smoke the engine that I can promise is a lot more expensive than the previous ones.

 

So, more engine jobs to do in ~4 years.

 

I've never seen a waterpump failure in any of the chain driven H6's. Why change it?

[SubaruJawn]

looks like its more complicated now.

WTF SUBARU !

 

better be big advantage over this design. like the EJ over the EA.

[subaru360]

It certainly doesn't strike me as the gigantic change these articles report it to be - VVT, a serp-belt, some strange water pump jigery-pokery, a timing chain..... and they stroked it..... big fat deal. This is nothing like the change from EA to EJ. .

 

Reporters and marketing types. They would like you to beleive the whole world was "new and improved" on a yearly basis. I'm sure the same evil marketing tactics were used from EA81 to EA82. Even though we all know the EA82 is just an EA81 with some OHC's clabbered onto the top of the heads in some engineer's spare time.

 

Looks like a whole bunch of extra crap to fail - all for no increase in HP, a slight increase in torque, and a whopping 1 MPG increase.

 

Smoke and mirrors for the masses. And us poor mechanics have to deal with all that electro-mechanical VVT garbage when it fails. Joe public will not like the price of those parts......

 

GD

 

Lets just hope this thing isn't a huge POS like the EA82 was.

 

I am kinda surprised at why they are doing it - what benefit is it really going to have to the average consumer? +1 MPG isn't really going to do anything for their sales - at least not in the States I believe. No power gains....a whole heap more gizmos to go wrong....yep, Subaru is dying.

 

For serious though, has anyone seen the new sedan WRX STi? Quite possibly the ugliest Subaru ever brought out. Subaru is losing it's quirks (Think the classic pillarless windows - they're gone) and becoming far too mainstream for my liking. Guess I'll be sticking to my good old 89' Legacy for quite some time.

 

I really like the '11 sti sedan. I hated the 08-10 sti hatch.

[NorthWet]

"Cooling has been optimized by using separate engine cooling circuitry for the block and the head, resulting in improvements in fuel efficiency and output characteristics."

 

Sounds to me like they may have dry-decked this engine. (At least as far as coolant. No mention about oiling.) Between (possibly) no block-to-head passages, smaller bores, and MLM HGs, maybe the head gaskets will be a non-issue.

 

As far as chain vs toothed-belt, my personal experience with late-60's/early-70's Datsuns and Toyotas was that 200k was common life for their chain systems, and even then the chain was usually serviceable but the sliding-surface (non-rotating) tensioner was worn out. Even if toothed-belts have equivalent life, I still have a problem with the accepted failure mode (sudden breakage) and the significant internal damage that also is accepted. Fail-soft versus fail-hard would be my preference. Proper maintenance *should* prevent hard failures, but even new belts can have flaws and break.

 

"Smoke and mirrors" sounds about right. Too much complexity for your average trip to the store. Something breaks, the repair estimate might get people thinking "total"...

[chuckillz]

vvt in a subaru, now that's what dreams are made of!!!

[kd7dej]

I can't help but wonder why there's a trend recently to make every new design look as much like a transforming fighting robot as possible.

 

Also, that's a little weird that they're stroking it but reducing the bore. Seems kinda backwards for what everyone else is doing these days. Woohoo for torque though

 

What are those dealies on the cam ends, is that some kind of vvt?

 

Gas mileage better?