I have an 89 subaru gl wagon 1.8l spfi 5 speed dual range 4wd. This wagon of mine was running fine since I bought it 2020. Before that it hadn't been on the road since 1999. The only work that needed at the time was battery and fuel. Since I've owned it no major repairs. Oil change, plugs and wires, air filter, tires, front axles, brakes. But thats about it. A little over a month ago I was heading to work when my air conditioner just stopped working. No fan no heater nothing. Not a hudge deal in my mind just roll down the windows which are electric. 10 minutes from work the windows quite working all together. On my way home the car started losing power and then it would come back again. This went on back and fourth for about 15 miles eventually stopping all together 5 miles from home. Since then I have been through everything. Tried everything (with out buying new parts) and its still just cranking with no start unless I pour fuel into the intake. I've ran the diagnostics and I'm getting codes 11, 13, and 14. I'm getting fuel up to the intake, but seems the injector isn't spraying fuel and I have tested it by running 12v directly to it and it works but not with the ignition. Fuel pump is working fine plenty of pressure. With out looking right at it 11 and 13 both say the exact same thing crank angle sensor. Why is there two codes for the same thing? Any help, ideas, or thoughts on what is going on would be awesome. 

Jason Heater

 

crank angle sensor is in the distributor...  But you are getting spark if it runs for a burst when you dump fuel down the throat.

If the injector sprays when powered by 12V directly, the wiring or the ECU output that drives it are suspect.  It is not unusual to get extraneous codes when something major is wrong.
 

 

check the engine ground wires and contact surfaces.

Don’t forget the age of the ECU. 
 

Tough call from here but as mentioned age and electronics are not a happy couple. 

If the ac and windows quit working, then I would check grounds.

 

11 is Crank Angle No Reference Pulse

13 is Crank Angle No Position Pulse

14 is Injector #1 abnormal injector output

Edited July 13, 20223 yr by Ionstorm66

 

17 hours ago, DaveT said:

crank angle sensor is in the distributor...  But you are getting spark if it runs for a burst when you dump fuel down the throat.

If the injector sprays when powered by 12V directly, the wiring or the ECU output that drives it are suspect.  It is not unusual to get extraneous codes when something major is wrong.
 

 

On a thread I read if the crank angle sensor is bad it still will send spark but it won't send the timing to the ecu which then tells the injector to open for fuel. Which is all new to me for i have ever owned are early 80's Fords.

5 hours ago, Ionstorm66 said:

 

This is awesome! This I hope will stop me from guessing so much. Appreciate it 👍👍

i second the ground wires these cars are so sensitive about there ground wires

every ground needs to be good and have a clean conection

the body needs to be grounded to the engine and the transmission and to the battery directly also the motor needs to be grounded to.the body and the transmission and the battery

the battery needs to be grounded to.the engine the body the battery  your left foot and atleast one pubic hair or the car wont run 

 

 

doubling up on grounding connections cannot hurt either. I did that with an electronic ignition conversion I did in an old Ford. Kept my pants a bit cleaner after

14 hours ago, ferp420 said:

i second the ground wires these cars are so sensitive about there ground wires

every ground needs to be good and have a clean conection

the body needs to be grounded to the engine and the transmission and to the battery directly also the motor needs to be grounded to.the body and the transmission and the battery

the battery needs to be grounded to.the engine the body the battery  your left foot and atleast one pubic hair or the car wont run 

 

 

Thats what I went after first. I think I found all of them, but think and knowing are two different things. I did the ones that I could see, is there some bastard ground that is well hidden some where? I haven't crawled under the car yet, but thats where I'm heading at this point. I just replaced the crank angle sensor and codes 11-13 are both gone. Still got 14 flashing.

don't you love it when diagnosis says something, you resolve and codes go away  

 

so, does it start now, even though you have the injector code 14 ?

How far can you go along the flow chart above for code 14 ?

and can you do a compression test and give us the result? Comp tests are a basic starting point even up to today's modern stuff. Had a BM guy chasing his tail with all sorts of theories and histories of what can ail modern sensors - then we went back to a comp test. Game over, the thing got towed away. Low comp in a few cylinders was telling us things like exhaust cam sensor, swap intake with exhaust and vice versa to see if error followed sensor - nope - still exhaust. Motor was shagged.

25 minutes ago, Steptoe's photos said:

and can you do a compression test and give us the result? Comp tests are a basic starting point even up to today's modern stuff. Had a BM guy chasing his tail with all sorts of theories and histories of what can ail modern sensors - then we went back to a comp test. Game over, the thing got towed away. Low comp in a few cylinders was telling us things like exhaust cam sensor, swap intake with exhaust and vice versa to see if error followed sensor - nope - still exhaust. Motor was 

With code 14 on the flow chart it stops me at the first step. It says to see page 56. I don't have page 56. Like you said when you take away all them bells and whistles what do you have. I haven't done a compression test on it. It didn't feel like it gave up the ghost. To me it seemed like a bad connection or it was running out of fuel then pick it back up again. I did stick my nose in it after I tried to start it the first time but I still couldn't smell fuel. Primed it, it fired up to die out when the fuel ran out. Ill definitely do a compression test in the morning. Thanks for the info every little bit helps.

Heater

IONSTORM66 - have you got p56 please ?

Here is an interesting question. Anybody know what the wire sends the pulse directly off the distributor?? In (my) theory you should be able to bypass the ecu. The wire that sends the timing to the ecu from the distributor. Another from the coil. Any thoughts on this? All criticism will be accepted no hard feelings. 

On 7/19/2022 at 12:10 AM, Heater said:

Here is an interesting question. Anybody know what the wire sends the pulse directly off the distributor?? In (my) theory you should be able to bypass the ecu. The wire that sends the timing to the ecu from the distributor. Another from the coil. Any thoughts on this? All criticism will be accepted no hard feelings. 

If you have pulse at the dizzy, and no spark, check the coil transistor. Its attached to the coil bracket. They bracket comes loose, which is the ground for the transistor, and that burns out the transistor.

On 7/18/2022 at 9:10 PM, Heater said:

Anybody know what the wire sends the pulse directly off the distributor?? In (my) theory you should be able to bypass the ecu. 

It cannot be done with what you have. Old points-type distributors were able to directly trigger an ignition coil because each time the points opened they interrupted the charging of the coil which caused the field in the coil windings to collapse and generate the back-EMF spark. Our electronic distributor is only outputting a tiny trigger pulse. It is not directly interrupting power that feeds the coil. There must be a device (or two) in-between the distributor and the coil to complete our ignition system. There are plenty of instances in other applications where pointless distributors can seemingly directly fire a coil but those actually have further electronics built into them so the trigger pulse can fire the coil. I have several 1965 Corvairs that are converted from points to electronic ignition using an aftermarket module that mounts inside the distributor  and those work well because the distributor also contains centrifugal and vacuum advance parts to handle required timing changes while driving.

Here is a thread from 2020 that is related.

 

On 7/21/2022 at 5:19 AM, azdave said:

It cannot be done with what you have. Old points-type distributors were able to directly trigger an ignition coil because each time the points opened they interrupted the charging of the coil which caused the field in the coil windings to collapse and generate the back-EMF spark. Our electronic distributor is only outputting a tiny trigger pulse. It is not directly interrupting power that feeds the coil. There must be a device (or two) in-between the distributor and the coil to complete our ignition system. There are plenty of instances in other applications where pointless distributors can seemingly directly fire a coil but those actually have further electronics built into them so the trigger pulse can fire the coil. I have several 1965 Corvairs that are converted from points to electronic ignition using an aftermarket module that mounts inside the distributor  and those work well because the distributor also contains centrifugal and vacuum advance parts to handle required timing changes while driving.

Here is a thread from 2020 that is related.

 

yes you can pulse the spark on the distributor manualy if you just want to test to se if you have spark just disconect the power or maybe its the negative lead ether way one will triger the spark discharge

the ignition system on the loyal isent much different than a vw after installing the electronic ignition modual the fuel injection and the ignition dont have alot to do with each other

if you dont have spark its usualy ether the coil mostly the coil or the electronic pick up inside the dizzy

40 minutes ago, ferp420 said:

yes you can pulse the spark on the distributor manualy if you just want to test to se if you have spark just disconect the power or maybe its the negative lead ether way one will triger the spark discharge

the ignition system on the loyal isent much different than a vw after installing the electronic ignition modual the fuel injection and the ignition dont have alot to do with each other

if you dont have spark its usualy ether the coil mostly the coil or the electronic pick up inside the dizzy

The #1 failure I see with no spark is the coil bracket having bad ground, which keeps the ignition transistor from working.

22 minutes ago, Ionstorm66 said:

The #1 failure I see with no spark is the coil bracket having bad ground, which keeps the ignition transistor from working.

i wouldent consider that a failure but yes these cars seem to have horable grounds ive never seen a car so sensitive but ya any loose ground reeks havoc on the system

1 hour ago, ferp420 said:

i wouldent consider that a failure but yes these cars seem to have horable grounds ive never seen a car so sensitive but ya any loose ground reeks havoc on the system

Yeah I my experience adding a ground from the battery to alternator, makes the alternators last twice as long! The replacement one I got last time has a extra tapped hole with a earth logo on it lol.

Why are we diagnosing a spark issue when Heater states the engine will run when fuel is poured down the throttle body?  

To me this is a fuel delivery problem, and since Heater says the injector can be manually fired with a bypass I’d say there’s an issue with a wire or two between the injector and ECU so the ECU is unable to send the signal to fire the injector, or the ECU injector output/circuit is fried. 

Not new electrical additions to your L series @Heater such as a head unit or keyless entry? No rodents in your vehicle recently? 

Might be time to do a continuality check on the wiring from ECU to the injector, only one broken wire is needed to stop the injector firing. If the wiring checks out correctly and you’re getting the correct resistance from the injector, it then points at your ECU.

Cheers 

Bennie

21 hours ago, ferp420 said:

i wouldent consider that a failure but yes these cars seem to have horable grounds ive never seen a car so sensitive but ya any loose ground reeks havoc on the system

If you keep trying to crank it with the loose ground, it will burn up the transistor.