Zarkoff500 Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 I'm the proud owner of an 85 GL Wagon 1800 4WD that likes to break timing belts. It has been through three timing belts within the last four years but this is not the main reason for the post (well it is actually, but we'll can ignore this detail). On July 3rd I was driving on I5 to Seattle and was about 2 miles from home and the revs dropped to zero and I made my way to the shoulder. I knew it was probably the timing belt again and had it towed back to my apartment. I figured that I could fix this as I did not want to pay a mechanic. I bought the belts and a Chilton (I had lost my Haynes which I liked much better) and got some help to try and fix it as I have limited tools. We worked on the car for about 5 hours and could not get it to run. We lined up all of the marks on the left and right cranks as well as the proper mark on the flywheel but had no luck. At this point my help and I were worn out and decided to have a professional make the fix because we both figured it would not be that expensive as we were sure we knew what was wrong. On the left crank, there are two marks for fun I guess and we had tried one of them but did not rotate it 180 degrees to try the other. I then had the car towed again to a local Subaru mechanic after hours and instructed them that the left crank was most likely off 180 degrees. Keep in mind that all of the skid plates, radiator fan, and all but the center timing belt covers were off the car already. All that the mechanic had to do was remove the crank and water pulleys as well as the tensioners and make sure the belts were on correctly, reassemble, make a slight distributor adjustment and road test (they did test the tensioners). I was told by the business that if all my car needed was what I had suggested, then I should have it back within two days. I received a call the next day telling me that my car was done and that the bill was $304. I had not been quoted (I did not ask as I had wrongly assumed that they would quote me before the work was started). I questioned the person on the phone as to why the cost was so high and they said it took 4 hours to complete the work. I am a novice mechanic but did not think that it would take nearly that long to complete the work that I had already started. I figured that in the current state the car was in, I could have completed the job in two hours or less with out the proper tools or know how. After a little though, I had called the mechanic back and asked why they did not quote me first and they became slightly defensive and told me that when I had originally called that they though I had been told 4 hours to complete the job. I said that I was not and they repeated again that they were pretty sure I had been told. Now I am angry as I feel that I have been ripped off. I had the complete timing belt job completed by another mechanic about 2.5 years ago (they provided the belts and had to remove all of the covers, fan etc) and the total came to $318. That is only a $14.00 difference and this time I had provided the $50.00 belts and given them less work to perform. I am going to return to the shop tomorrow and try to discuss this discrepancy but would like some input from you experts so I can have more facts on my side. Sorry for the long post! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 4 hours does seem like a long time, ive only done a few though so im not sure. When you are replacing the timing belts, do you realise the tensioners should be replaced as well? if not, thats probably why your belts are failing prematurely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucky92 Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 Not defending the mechanic ...but I have learned that they charge you book rate..whatever the book says for length of time to fix a problem....whether it took them that long or not. To me it is a rip off...thats why I either do the work myself or get friends that know what they are doing to help...and if that doesnt work then I only take to trusted mechanics ( and I only have 1 that I trust) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edrach Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 The price doesn't seem unreasonable to me, but the fact that it is still breaking belts is. The belts should last past the suggested 60,000 mile interval without breaking. Two thoughts: The tensioners as mentioned could be bad and contributing to the premature failure. Also, as far as timing belts go, I would not use anything other than genuine Subaru belts. By the way, next time the belts go, replace the water pump; it's right there when the belts are replaced and if it fails the labor involved is right up there with the cost of replacing the belts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcbrat Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 I second what Bucky said. they charge a flat rate for the repair, regardless of how long it takes one of my local shops charges $200 for a front axle job. book says it's a 1.5 or 2 hour job I think... (but since you provided the part, and they were willing to put them on for you, they should've charged time only,and if it did actually take them 4 hours, I might question their work.....) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zarkoff500 Posted July 15, 2005 Author Share Posted July 15, 2005 I appreciate all of your replies. It does sound like they are just charging a book rate. This is not a very honest practice. I have had the tensioners inspected on two occasions and they check out fine. I think the problem is that the left belt gets oil on it causing it to prematurely fail. I have had the front seal replaced and I am not sure if the oil is leaking from some place on top of the engine and working its way down or if it is still from the front main seal. The water pump has also been replaced within the last three years. I am going to check around and get some quotes on the same work to try and determine if I was charged a reasonable amount of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thealleyboy Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 No question they are charging you the book rate. I would also suspect they were inexperienced with Subarus, and probably took that long to figure it out. A lot of mechanics won't even touch work that is half-complete, so in a way you were fortunate that they were willing to take it on. That's no excuse for gouging customers, but in an emergency situation you don't have much bargaining power. Always better to do these repairs on your own terms. That's why I preach preventative maintenance... John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edrach Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 If you are checking around, try Smart Service in Shoreline. They will not be the least expensive but they are unquestionably the best in Seattle. http://www.smart-service.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Posted July 16, 2005 Share Posted July 16, 2005 Even if the tensioners "check out" ok, its good practice to replace them anyway. that way you know they are good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zarkoff500 Posted July 17, 2005 Author Share Posted July 17, 2005 No question they are charging you the book rate. I would also suspect they were inexperienced with Subarus, and probably took that long to figure it out. John The company is Suburb Service and they only do Subarus. I will keep the other place in mind. I did call two different places (dealership and independent) to get quotes on a full timing belt job (mine is less work) and both places quoted me less then four hours. I went back to the place on Friday and they had closed early. Monday I will return and "discuss" my case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viehmann Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 No question they are charging you the book rate. I would also suspect they were inexperienced with Subarus, and probably took that long to figure it out. A lot of mechanics won't even touch work that is half-complete, so in a way you were fortunate that they were willing to take it on. That's no excuse for gouging customers, but in an emergency situation you don't have much bargaining power. Always better to do these repairs on your own terms. That's why I preach preventative maintenance... John I agree with thealleyboy! They charged you flat rate for 4 hrs @ $75.00 per hr from the flat rate manual. This is a standard practice with dealerships and independent shops. Here in Charlotte NC the labor rate is between $95-110 per flat rate hr so, $75.00 per hr is not too bad! As to the issue of "The Customer" supplying some of the parts and also having started some of the tear down before the vehicle comes into the shop... Understand, This is a mechanics worst nightmare!!! The customer always feels they should get a break on the parts and labor since the mechanic "doesn't have as much work to do!" The reality is the job usually takes the mechanic a bit longer because he/she has to figure out how the jigsaw puzzle goes back together! Whenever I have to work on these cars I always hope all the bolts and hardwear made it into all the coffee cans stored in the trunk, most times the odds are 50/50. Even if the mechanic had a factory service manual for this 20 year old vehicle (Doubtfull) or ALLDATA/Mitchell on Demand (Possible) reassembly can be a pain especially, if you did not see how the vehicle came apart. Remember..Mechanics are people too! Based on my knowledge of the automotive repair business....They didn't rip you off! Just my 2c Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowmastered87GL Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 I am a fan of the book rate personally. You are always able to ask what the hourly rate is and how many hours are billed for a service. Think of it this way.... an axle job bills, say 1 hour. What if it takes 2 hours because its rusty or something is a pain to work on. Alot of honest mechanics (like Richie) would probably just eat the hour and finish the job right. Other times maybe it would take 45 minutes... basically it averages out. I do MOST of my own work so its all billed as my own time.... FREE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baccaruda Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 I'd say just to cut your losses and chalk it up as a life lesson - ask the mechanic about billing first. If you would feel that $200 total would have been fair (and I agree with viehmann) then it's a $200 lesson which isn't too bad in the long run. I know I've probably spent more on equally regrettable lessons. Also, the Haynes or the Chiltons - one of them at least - has the timing belt procedure WRONG. If you would like to service your car yourself, then you should get a copy of How To Keep Your Subaru Alive, 2nd Edition. They pop up on ebay from time to time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edrach Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 You might do a quick search of Suburb Service here on the USMB and draw your own conclusions. Seems your car is a bit too old for them to work on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richierich Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 You should call a dealership and ask how many hours it takes to do the job. I believe Subaru book time is 3.0 hours, extra .5 for waterpump. If you took the distributor out, extra 1.0, crank seal is .5 hours, cam seals 1.0. They may use another book like Alldata to figure out times which can be different. Currently we have a timing belt special of $199.00 (parts & labor). I agree that a job is harder if you do not take it apart yourself. If you came in and already took it apart I would charge you the 3 hours @ $180, because we would spend a lot of time look for bolts, etc. Most shops have to give you a written estimate if you come in and drop off the vehicle. I always put a price in, or if we do not know what the problem is we put in the diagnosis time, and put "call and advise" and then call the customer before we start the work. Regular customer usually just put a cap on what we can do (say $200) before we have to call and get more approval. Might want to look into your state laws about written estimates and your rights as a consumer. But most likely you have to chalk it up to experience. As Ed said you might have wanted to get some tensioners or the cogged bearing replaced as it might be causing premature T-belt failure. And any oil or antifreeze getting on the belt will reduce the life, so get crank, cam and oil pump leaks fixed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zarkoff500 Posted July 18, 2005 Author Share Posted July 18, 2005 You should call a dealership and ask how many hours it takes to do the job. I believe Subaru book time is 3.0 hours, extra .5 for waterpump. If you took the distributor out, extra 1.0, crank seal is .5 hours, cam seals 1.0. They may use another book like Alldata to figure out times which can be different. Currently we have a timing belt special of $199.00 (parts & labor). I agree that a job is harder if you do not take it apart yourself. If you came in and already took it apart I would charge you the 3 hours @ $180, because we would spend a lot of time look for bolts, etc. Most shops have to give you a written estimate if you come in and drop off the vehicle. I always put a price in, or if we do not know what the problem is we put in the diagnosis time, and put "call and advise" and then call the customer before we start the work. Regular customer usually just put a cap on what we can do (say $200) before we have to call and get more approval. Might want to look into your state laws about written estimates and your rights as a consumer. But most likely you have to chalk it up to experience. As Ed said you might have wanted to get some tensioners or the cogged bearing replaced as it might be causing premature T-belt failure. And any oil or antifreeze getting on the belt will reduce the life, so get crank, cam and oil pump leaks fixed. The dealership quoted me 3.5 hours and an independent shop quoted 3 hours. When I had asked them why I was not quoted first, they said that they had told me four hours, but they had not. I do understand that if you bring in a vehicle that you have started work on it can be a pain to find everything but I had all of the parts in one location and most of the timing covers, skid plates and fan off of the car already. My reasoning was that they could just remove the remaining few parts, rotate the left crank 180 degrees to get the car running and then put it back together. Was this unrealistic thinking on my part? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thealleyboy Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 I do understand that if you bring in a vehicle that you have started work on it can be a pain to find everything but I had all of the parts in one location and the most of the timing covers, skid plates and fan off of the car already. My reasoning was that they could just remove the remaining few parts, rotate the left crank 180 degrees to get the car running and then put it back together. Was this unrealistic thinking on my part? This is a tricky issue. Some of the "professional" type shops, especially those that specialize in a single make, can be the biggest pain in the asses when it comes to getting things done. The best mechanics can pick and choose the jobs they want, and the most difficult (and highest paying) will be the most attractive to someone working on commission. Smaller general repair shops are more likely to take on something that's partially complete. A lot of times these mechanics won't be as snobby, and actually enjoy solving problems. The truly skilled mechanics in these smaller shops can actually make better money per hour than the dealer mechanics. The problem is that they can also rip you off, and may be tempted to do so if they think they can get away with it. In a "one-shot" or emergency transaction, you should be especially careful... John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby_boucher Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Flat Rate for the shop i work at would be 3 hours (if the veh. has P/S, A/C) . I'm actually a service writer and it is required By state law that the customer be contacted and quoted prior to the work being done. if you were not quoted you can ask the current shop what work was done to your veh. make a list and get the exact same quote from four other shops. then you can show the current shop the quotes and explain calmly to the manager what the situation is (Trust me being pissed off and yelling wont get you anywhere if anything it will piss off the manager who wont help you at all after that). Explain that you where never quoted hours or a price. If they continue to say that you were contacted and quoted ask to speak with the person who "qouted" you the time. if they dont have anyone there and they are still fighting you on the situation burn there building to ground. i know that the mechanics that work here hate working on stuff thats torn down and reguardless wether all the bolt were there or not its still a pain to get back together. Best bet for next time if you cant fix it yourself and its somthing you or your friends has no experience with talk to a couple of shops and look around. if you ever on the east side and need somthing give me a call and maybe we can help you out our labor rate is 65/per hour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samo Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Suburb Service! ACK! NO! RUN AWAY! Trust me, look around the boards and see what people think about Suburb Service. Smart Service is the place to go, for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zarkoff500 Posted July 19, 2005 Author Share Posted July 19, 2005 Flat Rate for the shop i work at would be 3 hours (if the veh. has P/S, A/C) . I'm actually a service writer and it is required By state law that the customer be contacted and quoted prior to the work being done. if you were not quoted you can ask the current shop what work was done to your veh. make a list and get the exact same quote from four other shops. then you can show the current shop the quotes and explain calmly to the manager what the situation is (Trust me being pissed off and yelling wont get you anywhere if anything it will piss off the manager who wont help you at all after that). Explain that you where never quoted hours or a price. If they continue to say that you were contacted and quoted ask to speak with the person who "qouted" you the time. if they dont have anyone there and they are still fighting you on the situation burn there building to ground. i know that the mechanics that work here hate working on stuff thats torn down and reguardless wether all the bolt were there or not its still a pain to get back together. Best bet for next time if you cant fix it yourself and its somthing you or your friends has no experience with talk to a couple of shops and look around. if you ever on the east side and need somthing give me a call and maybe we can help you out our labor rate is 65/per hour. I was not aware that it was WA state law to be quoted first (I figured it was as shops have most always done this with me in the past). I was never quoted time or money, only given the bill when the car was completed. I went there today to speak with the owner (Candy) and she was not there. The receptionist called her and they basically said that they charge 4 hours of labor for the timing belt job regardless of the time it takes. The receptionist didn't exactly agree with this practice, but said that lots of shops have this practice. Candy was nice enough to say she would stay later tomorrow so she could tell me again why I was charged what I was charged. So far it looks like I fumbled the ball pretty well by not doing enough research before I had the car towed in. I really do appreciate all of your replies (espically the mechanics as I get a better understanding). So far, I have had two places quote the work and both have quoted less time then I was charged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zarkoff500 Posted July 20, 2005 Author Share Posted July 20, 2005 Here are two emails I received from the owner (Candy) today regarding this issue (I had not sent her any email in regards to my dissatisfaction). My comments are in parenthesis: Today approximately 8:00 AM PST: Val ***** (receptionist) spoke with me last night and said that you wanted to know how I bill 4 hours on your car. All service repair shops and body shops bill by flat rate manual. The manual allows 1.0 hour of labor to determine what the issue is and what YOU had done incorrectly and push the car in the shop. than it allows 2.7 hours labor to remove the covers (you had the center cover on the car, so this means that the balancer has to be removed and cover removed and to re install your cam belts that you installed incorrectly. Than the manual allows .1each to remove and inspect and replace both left and right idlers, and .1 each to remove each tensioner's than we had to re install the fan that you removed and the skid plate .3, test drive the vehicle and reset the timing. So if you add all this together it comes to 4.4 hours per the manual, but I only charged you 4.0 hours of labor to do all of the above work and gave you a free tire rotation which should have cost $20.99 (Didn't they save money by not using any oil?), you wanted to exchange this for a free first time oil change, I agreed to that .It is the policy of my shop that we perform free oil changes on cars that are not leaking oil, that policy is clearly posted inside the office. So to make a long story short you actually were not charged as much as you could have been. I was in the car when my husband spoke with you the first day that you called (7.12) and I remember him telling you around $270.00 or $280.00 (she had previously mentioned that she heard him tell me four hours, now she says he told me an amount. On my receipt from 7.14, it says that I was quoted when they had called with the bill) and you also spoke to me several times prior to your car coming in the shop and you could have asked at that time, and than made your decision to bring the car or not. I do not appreciate the comment about ripping you off (I did say that billing for a set amount of time irregardless of the actual amount of time it took isn't entirely honest, but I did not say I was ripped off) and being dishonest, this is the way that the industry works; you pay for the time, skill level, and tools that a certified technician has invested. Candice C. Johns Owner Because I did not reply, I received this message at about 2:30 PM. Remember, yesterday she had agreed to stay until 5 PM to discuss this with me: Val I assume that you got the email from me this am. I will be leaving the office around 4:30 pm today as I have an appointment. The email is a very clear explanation. Candy Johns She then sent the original email again at 3:50 PM because I had still not replied. Val Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.