e4620 Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 Heres one to scratch your heads over... First of all, the car is a '99 outback, ej25 dohc with 120,500 miles. Took it to the dealer for a head gasket job after finding black particles in the coolant, dealer confirmed the gaskets were blown. Drivers side head was warped out of spec, too far to mill, so it was replaced. The passenger side was milled down and put back on. Oddly, the block was almost perfect. The cylinder walls still have the hatch marks from when they were honed. Got the car back and it ran rough and missed on 2 and 4 (the new head). I tried new ngk plugs and oem wires. Still missed. Brought the car back and they tried a number of theories, ranging from the egr valve being stuck to fuel injectors failing. The mechanic swapped injectors from 1 and 3 and nothing changed. He also ran compression and leakdown tests. 190-195psi on all cylinders, as well as 90psi held for one minute each at TDC for the leakdown. At this point we both came to the conclusion that the new head was bad, it was replaced with yet another refurb from SOA. Same problem remains. Oddly, there is now positive pressure coming from the oil filler neck when the cap is off while running. The dealer also tried a known good coil pack for what its worth. The car never overheated before the headgasket job and all normal maintenance has been performed. If anyone has any ideas I would greatly appreciate input here. The mechanic and I are both puzzled. Whats more interesting is, the 2 and 4 injectors can be unplugged one at a time with almost no change at all in idle. Same with the plug wires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 Hm...not sure? Here's some diagrams anyway..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 Do you know if they put the camshafts back in the right spots? They say IN and EX on them, but I think you can put them in the wrong place. The timeing marks on the pullys would still line up if you put the pullys on the wrong cam. If you pull the valve cover, you can look at the cams, they will have their proper designation on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 From your discussion, you are discussing both a fuel problem (as bad injectors), or a spark problem (replacing the coil pack). My suggestion is to first figure out which problem do you really have. Suggest using one of those in line spark testers. One end plugs into the end of the spark plug wire, the other end of the tester plugs onto the spark plug. When running, a little light flashes inside the tester wire to verify that spark is getting to the plug. You may also want to pull a spark plug to see if it is "wet" with unburned fuel. There are prolly ways to check to see if an injector is operating properly, and actually spraying the fuel mist into the engine. I just don't know how that is done. Still, as I suggested, find out if you are having a spark or fuel problem. Eliminating one of the two potentials, makes it a lot easier to find a solution to the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e4620 Posted November 30, 2007 Author Share Posted November 30, 2007 Thanks for the diagrams, porcupine. Also thanks for the idea 91loyale, I'll get that checked tomorrow since the cars at the shop (I wasen't about to drive it home in this condition) Rooster, thats the problem, I really don't know what the issue is. By all means it should have spark. The way the coil pack is wired I'd be having issues on 1 and 3 as well if either of the coils were bad. We tried a new pack anyway along with new plugs and wires. The injectors were also swapped from the other side of the engine and nothing changed, which indicates the injectors are good, I will have to make sure the injectors themselves are getting the fuel though. I appreciate the input and will pull the plugs again tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 did it ever have cylinder misfires before the head gasket work? to me that would almost rule out any fueling issues as they should not have touched any of that. if it never did it before i think they really need to focus on the parts they replaced or worked on, not things they did not. check the timing and tensioner, but they should have gotten that right? wow, you must have some really good connections or are very fortunate to have service like that from a dealer, that's exceptional. well, unless they're charging for all of that of course. but replacing the head twice, go subaru!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e4620 Posted November 30, 2007 Author Share Posted November 30, 2007 Its never missfired before, this is all after the headgasket job. The timing marks are all dead on, I'll have to look at the tensioner though. Haha as for the connections at the dealer, I'd never been to them for service before, only occasional parts. I have to admit they've bent over backwards for me on this job as I only have to pay for the original headgasket work. The reason the head got replaced again is because the mechanic and I both thought the only logical explination was a bad head and sticking valves. So, that was warrenty work. The mechanic has been exceptionally helpfull, inviting me into the shop to help diagnose the problem is not something I would expect normally. The rest was all luck, for instance the wires I had put on were less then a year old and I had the recipt. Therefore that as well was warrentied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svxpert Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 <<Took it to the dealer for a head gasket job after finding black particles in the coolant, dealer confirmed the gaskets were blown. Drivers side head was warped out of spec, too far to mill, so it was replaced. The passenger side was milled down and put back on. Oddly, the block was almost perfect. The cylinder walls still have the hatch marks from when they were honed. Got the car back and it ran rough and missed on 2 and 4 (the new head). >> how much did the work cost and what dealer was it that messed up your car? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 this was a "new" factory Subaru head or a remanned head? i would continue troubleshooting the work they did if this was never present before. did they pull the engine to do this work? either way, i would make sure each and every connector pin is okay - i've seen bent connector pins. plugs are all connected, but if the pin is bent the connection is broken. and while checking those, make sure all the connectors are seated too, the engine harness connectors can be a bear to seat fully. i've seen no-starts caused by almost-seated connectors. doubt that's the case here since yours does start, but i'd want to inspect all the pins at least anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdjdc Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 I just did a 2.5 repalcement and had a similar issue. It turned out that the cam timing was 180 degrees off on the intake cam. Look at the hash marks very carefully and make sure the single hash mark is in the up position. The double hash mark has to match up with the double hash mark of the exhaust cam. If that is correct, then I would also agree that you need to look inside the cover and look to be sure the cams are in the right place. This shouldn't be a difficult problem to fix. It shouldn't have happened in the first place, not at a dealer with a certified subaru mechanic. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 [...]Drivers side head was warped out of spec, too far to mill, so it was replaced.[...]Got the car back and it ran rough and missed on 2 and 4 (the new head).[...]The mechanic swapped injectors from 1 and 3 and nothing changed.[...]At this point we both came to the conclusion that the new head was bad, it was replaced with yet another refurb from SOA. Same problem remains.[...]Whats more interesting is, the 2 and 4 injectors can be unplugged one at a time with almost no change at all in idle. Same with the plug wires. There are certainly a few possible causes, but there's a simple one to investigate. Verify that the injector connectors for #2 and #4 are in the right place (not reversed). The engine will start and run with them swapped, just not very well. There should be a piece of identifying tape around the harness right at each injector connector; it's white on the front cylinders (#1 and #2), and black at the rears (#3 and #4). If the tape is missing, you can check the wire colors. Oddly, there is now positive pressure coming from the oil filler neck when the cap is off while running.That's not encouraging. A simple thing to check is the PCV system. You probably don't want to think about the other possibilities, which tend to relate to the quality of the work that was done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdjdc Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 If the cams are 180 degrees off timing then you can get positive pressure due to the valves all being open or closed at the same time. Creates some nasty pressure changes inside the crank case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2.5GL Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 I would hope that a valve adjustment was done after the new head was on the engine. I would doulble check all the previously mentioned cam timing and cam placement ideas topped off with a valve clearance check. AND, if the cam placement is wrong make sure they check the valve clearance AGAIN after proper install of the cams. Lewis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unibrook Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 Try replacing the front 02 sensor. Just humor me. I chased sporadic misfire in cyl's 2&4 for a year before I determined this was the cause. MIGHT just be coincidence that you had your hg's replaced at same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted December 1, 2007 Share Posted December 1, 2007 The injectors were also swapped from the other side of the engine and nothing changed, which indicates the injectors are good, just because the injectors worked on the other side doesn't mean that they were getting the correct signal at the correct time. in fact , if you suspected a fuel problem this would increase the chances that the problem was fuel delivery or injector signal/power rather than the injector itself. it sounds like ob99 has this in mind. keep at it. and good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted December 2, 2007 Share Posted December 2, 2007 just because the injectors worked on the other side doesn't mean that they were getting the correct signal at the correct time. [...] it sounds like ob99 has this in mind.[...]Yes, injector timing has been an issue in a few threads recently. Thanks to 91Loyale, who evidently trusted me when he read my previous post (#11) in this thread, and apparently benefited from it. See: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=82614 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e4620 Posted December 2, 2007 Author Share Posted December 2, 2007 Thanks everyone, I'll have to check the injector wires and the camshafts for proper location/timing next chance I get, unfortuneately I won't be able to get to the shop until later on in the week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2.5GL Posted December 5, 2007 Share Posted December 5, 2007 new info... Does it run? Yes: Cams are in the correct location. other problems are most likely the cause. No: Check cams first, the engine won't run, but if it did, it would not be driveable. Good luck! Lewis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdjdc Posted December 5, 2007 Share Posted December 5, 2007 Sorry, but just because the cams are out of place doesn't mean the car will not run. I have seen two engines where the cams were 180 degrees out intake from exhaust and the car ran, but very roughly. I still believe this is the problem with this car. new info... Does it run? Yes: Cams are in the correct location. other problems are most likely the cause. No: Check cams first, the engine won't run, but if it did, it would not be driveable. Good luck! Lewis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAWalker Posted December 5, 2007 Share Posted December 5, 2007 Back to the basics. Your car was running fine when it was driven into the shop for head gasket work..............................Now immediatly after the work was performed it has a misfire.......................... First, check the work that was done! Everything that should be checked first has been mentioned................Cam timing, and valve clearance. You had a OEM remaned cylinder head installed. I've never bought a remaned 2.5 head from Subaru, but I am fairly certain that they do not come with lifters and cams. Soooo..........was the valve lash properly adjusted? Were the cams properly installed? Was the timing belt properly installed? I would hope that in replacing two heads, that at least once, they would have gotten the intake cam on the intake side and exhaust on the exhaust side, and the timing belt installed properly. But this is easy to inspect while checking valve clearance. I can't stress this point enough. Make certain that all the mechanical work was done properly before trying to condemn the ignition and fuel delivery systems. These systems were working fine before the mechanical work was performed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e4620 Posted December 5, 2007 Author Share Posted December 5, 2007 This friday unfortuneately is the earliest that I can see the mechanic, first thing I'm going to do is check to see if the 2 and 4 injector wires are swapped. If they aren't I'll pull off the valve cover. (I'm lucky, the mechanic at this dealer actually allows me back in the shop and listens to my input as well as lets me get my hands dirty) The car did run perfectly fine when it went in, the only reason it went in is because I didn't like what I saw when I looked in the coolant overflow. The SOA remaned heads do not come with cams, I'm not sure about the lifters. I certainly hope they adjusted the valve cleranance though, I'll definitely make sure they did. As for the timing belt he's had to install one twice on this car, if he botched it both times I think theres a serious problem :-\ As for drivability it seems to even out when you give it some gas, I did drive it a bit but it lost power on the first hill I hit and blinked the CEL for the missfire codes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montana105 Posted December 5, 2007 Share Posted December 5, 2007 If the intake/exhaust cams were switched would the engine be able to achieve the compression results posted in the first post,and if so would he not be able to rotate engine manually and see if intake or exhaust valve is opening at the correct time? Haven't worked on enough dual cam engines to know if this could be so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdjdc Posted December 5, 2007 Share Posted December 5, 2007 If the intake/exhaust cams were switched would the engine be able to achieve the compression results posted in the first post,and if so would he not be able to rotate engine manually and see if intake or exhaust valve is opening at the correct time? Haven't worked on enough dual cam engines to know if this could be so. It's easier just to inspect the cams and see if they are in the correct positions. Only six bolts to remove the valve covers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAWalker Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 We just went through this in another post, were after HG work the car wouldn't start. Compression was good, turned out the cams in one head were switched around. That car was a '96 OB. And yes, it is easier to pull the valve cover than to mess around trying to determine this in other ways. Other than maybe a vacuum gage. Not positive, but I remember talking to another shop here in town that had and '97-'99 OB that the cams were switched around in, and that it ran, but bent valves. I'm leaning twoard tight valves on the new head here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e4620 Posted December 6, 2007 Author Share Posted December 6, 2007 In theory, the compression should still be good. The valves are still all closed on the compression stroke. I had the pleasure of seeing the first remaned head that came off, the valves were not bent and everything looked good. The exhaust valves were already carboned up a bit though. At least in retrospect I believe they were the exhaust, I didn't note the side they were on only their condition. Once I have the valve cover off I shouldent even have to watch the valves, if I remember correctly the camshafts should be labeled IN and EX. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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