ocei77 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 A question. I know that earlier EJ's had issues with the HG and until the solution of MLS gaskets was found ,"condtioner" was to be added to the coolant system I know, this"conditoner" is nothing but stop leak. My question is why are so many still advocating adding this to new rebuilds with updated gaskets? O. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North to Alaska Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 The subie "Water conditoner" does a lot more then just being a 'STOP LEAK" Look up "water wetter". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eppoh Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Water wetter is made by Redline Subie conditioner is not water wetter. What are you getting at? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SchwarzeEwigkt Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 As far as I know, it's just a rebranded stop leak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 the 96 - 99 ej25s tend to have head gasket issues with exhaust leaking into the coolant. the conditioner does nothing for these engines and i don't think subaru ever recommended adding it to them. however, the 00 - 03/04 ej25s had external leaks and subaru would extend the warranty on the head gaskets to 100k miles for some of these years if you added the conditioner. and it is my understanding that subaru requires, strongly suggests, that the conditioner be added to the coolant on ALL engines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocei77 Posted June 18, 2011 Author Share Posted June 18, 2011 (edited) the 96 - 99 ej25s tend to have head gasket issues with exhaust leaking into the coolant. the conditioner does nothing for these engines and i don't think subaru ever recommended adding it to them. however, the 00 - 03/04 ej25s had external leaks and subaru would extend the warranty on the head gaskets to 100k miles for some of these years if you added the conditioner. and it is my understanding that subaru requires, strongly suggests, that the conditioner be added to the coolant on ALL engines. Going further, let's say I redo the head gaskets on the BE. Is it still "suggested" to add this stop leak stuff? I am just trying to wrap my head around adding a stop leak to an engine that is not leaking. O. Edited June 18, 2011 by ocei77 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 I am just trying to wrap my head around adding a stop leak to an engine that is not leaking. O. it doesn't make much sense to me either. why does a new car / head gasket need stop leak, but that's what they call for. seems to suggest there is something wrong with the design. oh well....... i'm not familiar with ''BE'', what year and model? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quidam Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 it doesn't make much sense to me either. why does a new car / head gasket need stop leak, but that's what they call for. seems to suggest there is something wrong with the design. oh well....... I can't see where the stuff would "condition" the new Viton MLS gaskets. May be wrong about that?... Open deck block and all, it's a stop leak for an engineering problem?. Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ergo Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 (edited) In EJ25 engines that don't currently leak, the rationale for adding the cooling system conditioner is that it will stop leaks that eventually develop(seepage is virtually guaranteed at some point on EJ25 engines) The garage that I use for work on my Sube says that all Subaru head gaskets will leak sooner or later(and usually earlier than expected) because of an engine design defect that creates hot spots. My girlfriend has a Honda Accord with 180k miles on it and has never experienced cooling system problems; head gasket is still tight with no coolant loss except for a slight reduction in the reservoir's coolant level over time due to evaporation. The head guy at the garage says that the conditioner is largely psychological; it doesn't really work well. In my experience, the conditioner works for about the first 5-6k miles on my 2000 Legacy and then coolant seepage(which is not severe) resumes. I keep the reservoir level rather high to avoid severe coolant loss and have never experienced any signs of engine overheating even during hot summer weather w/AC going full blast. Edited June 18, 2011 by ergo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1-3-2-4 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 it doesn't make much sense to me either. why does a new car / head gasket need stop leak, but that's what they call for. seems to suggest there is something wrong with the design. oh well....... i'm not familiar with ''BE'', what year and model? BE is a sedan 3rd gen 00-04 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rverdoold Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 As far as I know, it's just a rebranded stop leak. Bar's stop leak to be more precise. But yes it is indeed a rebranded stop leak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWDfreak Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 I thought it was well known that the Subaru "Cooling System Conditioner" was simply rebranded Holts Radweld... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ergo Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 I thought it was well known that the Subaru "Cooling System Conditioner" was simply rebranded Holts Radweld... Yeah, that's what it is. Bar's Leaks has a reputation for plugging up heater cores and some of the radiator core passages. As I recall, Bars Leaks is composed of ground up walnut shells with some soluble oil added to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rverdoold Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Sorry you are right it is holts!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 The Subaru "conditioner" (stop leak) actually does work quite well in MANY cases of external leakage on the EJ253 and EJ251. I have a Forester that leaked so severely from the drivers side head that I figured it was a sure bet I would be doing the head gaskets soon (6" puddle under the car, constant burning of coolant on the exhuast, top off every day or would overheat the next....). My dealer parts guy sugested I try two bottles of the stop leak and it hasn't leaked a drop of coolant in over 20k miles now including two virtually non-stop 550 mile trips from Portland to Reno and back again. So don't knock the stuff too hard - it can and does work. The problem with the gaskets was an issue with the sealant washing away from the thin metal substrate. They changed the sealant being used on the gaskets in the newer revision but if it's only leaking some coolant then it's not that big of a deal to add a couple bottles of the conditioner and see where it leads. And no - the product is not Bar's. It's Holts Radweld - a european product. And I have not seen any evidence that it plugs radiators or heater cores. It dries in the presense of air and thus if not used properly or if too much is used it could cause problems. Subaru says up to two bottles at a time. Two bottles worked great for me and at a cost of $3 and 10 minutes..... it's a hell of a lot better than doing the HG's. As stated - this product does nothing for the flawed EJ25D head gaskets or the typical style of failure that occurs on the EJ22's and early EJ25's. It is not meant for sealing combustion gasses - it is meant to stop external leakage which is does very well. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 So don't knock the stuff too hard - it can and does work. absolutely!! the proof is in the pudding, or more correctly, on the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rpm90001 Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I'm going to add it to my 00 legacy, just did the head gaskets and don't know if it is actualy needed. I don't like the stuff, but I can say...while taking apart my motor there was no evidence that the "conditioner"was ever in in the motor. It was added by Subaru 60 k ago. I seen nothing..and I looked closely even cut open the old hoses, motor was completely clean. I don't like the idea of having to put the stuff in, but I think the risk is very low if it is added. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocei77 Posted June 19, 2011 Author Share Posted June 19, 2011 The Subaru "conditioner" (stop leak) actually does work quite well in MANY cases of external leakage on the EJ253 and EJ251. .....As stated - this product does nothing for the flawed EJ25D head gaskets or the typical style of failure that occurs on the EJ22's and early EJ25's. It is not meant for sealing combustion gasses - it is meant to stop external leakage which is does very well. GD I am in total agreement there. A direct question as you've rebuilt more EJ's than I ever will. Do you use this in a new HG job? O. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I'm going to add it to my 00 legacy, just did the head gaskets and don't know if it is actualy needed. the conditioner is recommended for these engines, before and / or after head gasket replacement. that is one reason subaru calls it a ''conditioner'' and not stop leak or ''radweld''. it sounds more like a ''helper'' than a hole plugger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uniberp Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 (edited) One one bottle of the Subaru OEM bottle, I read years ago, that it contained "linseed husks". I though that was curious. I have no problem adding that. So I do. For external HG leaks only. Edited July 14, 2011 by uniberp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 (edited) I dislike, and not trust, stop leak. At least some the of the time, it is a temporary "fix" to a serious problem. If you have a leaky radiator, repairing or replacing it is probaly a more reliable way to go than simply adding a container of stop leak. Reportedly, by clogging radiators, stop leak has destroyed many engines through overheating. It is very dangerous stuff, in my view. Why does Subaru advocate the use of stop leak? Wel, in my view, it's sure as hell not for the benefit of the owner. Well designed, and well manufactured, engines do not seep copious amounts of coolant through their head gaskets. Crappy engines do. In my view, Subaru uses stop leak so that the new owner doesn't immediately realize that he may have bought a brand new car with a seeping engine. It's just that simple. I do not use the Subaru stop leak in my Forester. If, and when, I see seepage I might install the stuff. There is a real risk to using stop leak. I wouldn't use it routinely, only if it is need. I agree 100% that if stop leak can stop minor seepage it's a much better way to go than paying for a head gasket replacement. Another thing with stop leak. When you change the coolant you can't possibly get all of it out of your cooling system. If you rountinely add stop leak with each coolant change you're going to end up with more, and more, of the crud in your cooling system. Then someday, your radiator or heater core clogs up. If you're lucky you don't blow an engine through overheating . Edited June 20, 2011 by The Dude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparky11 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Is this conditioner specified for 2005 and.up? Changed the coolant in the OBXT 2 months ago and didn't add any to the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I am in total agreement there.A direct question as you've rebuilt more EJ's than I ever will. Do you use this in a new HG job? I don't use the stuff till I see external seepage. I haven't had a single gasket failure on any Subaru engine I've done gasket replacement on. I always use Subaru gaskets of the latest availible revision and I install them 100% dry on surfaces that are smooth, flat, clean, and prepared with lacquer thinner. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Subaru uses stop leak so that the new owner doesn't immediately realize that he has bought a brand new car with a crappy engine. It's just that simple. Subaru engines are anything but crappy and if you really beleive that I would sugest that you probably aren't qualified to render your judgement on such a subject. Yes there is a design flaw - but it has been addressed and it's not a big problem. If these engines were so crappy then my Forester wouldn't have over 250k on it nor would you be able to find many similar examples - which you most certainly can. It's a gasket. They fail. It happens. Get over it. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 (edited) Subaru engines are anything but crappy and if you really beleive that I would sugest that you probably aren't qualified to render your judgement on such a subject. Yes there is a design flaw - but it has been addressed and it's not a big problem. If these engines were so crappy then my Forester wouldn't have over 250k on it nor would you be able to find many similar examples - which you most certainly can. It's a gasket. They fail. It happens. Get over it. GD You are a highly experienced Subaru technician. You have the knowledge, tools, and equipment to handle many, if not all, repairs yourself. Sometimes I think your perspective is different from many other Subaru owners. I have no doubt that plenty of posters on this board can remove a Subaru engine in under two hours. Many other posters lack the experience, tools, equipment, or even the necessary space to remove an engine themselves. Same thing applies for a head gasket replacement. My point is that what is "small potatoes" to you may be a very big deal to someone who is not equiped to handle the problem themselves. If a head gasket fails and you have the all the resources required to fix it yourself, you're out half a day's time and $109. If you're not situated to do the job yourself, you're out $1,500 of take home pay. If you're raising a couple of kids forking over $1,500 for an unexpected repair may not be the most pleasant experience in the world. Am I unreasonable to expect that an engine not seep coolant without using stop leak? I don't think so. I think requiring the routine use of stop leak in a brand new engine is a "work around". I think using stop leak in an engine presents a risk. I think adding stop leak routinely over a period of time adds to that risk. Anyway, you're right, in general the 2.5L SOHC is not a crappy engine. It's an engine, that like any engine, has several flaws. However, I would prefer that Subaru address those flaws through redesign and not through the expediency of requiring me to install a proprietory stop leak. Edited June 20, 2011 by The Dude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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