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Guest Message by DevFuse
 

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Head Bolts, Re-use, or order new.


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48 replies to this topic

#1 xdeadeye1

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Posted 01 March 2018 - 01:58 AM

Head gasket job on 2000 Outback wagon. 2.5 SOHC, AUTO

 

117k miles.   This is the 2nd time the job has been done..  (previously done approximately 63 k miles as a rebuilt title)

 

I WOULD like to save the money.  I'm putting out some dinero for a gates timing belt kit w/ pump, and a Fel-Pro total gasket kit, from rock auto.

 

I seen a lot of different answers on the web.



#2 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 01 March 2018 - 03:22 AM

Gates - junk.
FelzPro - junk.

Dealer - good. Use 770 part number HG's.

Head bolt - reuse.

GD

#3 dp213

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Posted 01 March 2018 - 09:22 AM

Asin timing belt kit from Amazon has good quality parts and is pretty cheap. Japanese bearings and belt and it comes with the water pump. Head gaskets per above.

#4 idosubaru

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Posted 01 March 2018 - 09:32 AM

Reuse headbolts
Aisin timing kit

Only buy the gaskets you need don’t buy the entire gasket set if money is an issue.

Headgasket and intake manifold gasket are the only necessary items. Exhaust gaskets can often be reused and if they leak, so what you can replace them in 5 minutes.

Some folks on here that have significant experience and success use Fel Pros with good results on that engine but I’ve never tried them.

#5 Souperoo

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Posted 01 March 2018 - 09:46 AM

This is what I just bought and used.  All quality parts, nothing from china.  (Japan = Good)

 

https://www.partsgee...KF-001&x=20&y=7

Double check that kit for your car.

 

I have a gates kit here that came with the car and everything is from china, plus it's the wrong kit for my car.



#6 forester2002s

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Posted 01 March 2018 - 10:42 AM

If the new timing belt has no manufacturer's name on it, I wouldn't use it.



#7 Mike104

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Posted 01 March 2018 - 11:09 AM

Gates - junk.
FelzPro - junk.

Dealer - good. Use 770 part number HG's.

Head bolt - reuse.

GD

 

Best answer^

 

Subaru HG PN 11044AA770 for EJ25 Engines is the one to use


Edited by Mike104, 01 March 2018 - 11:10 AM.


#8 Numbchux

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Posted 01 March 2018 - 11:17 AM

Yep, Subaru head bolts are not torque to yield, so they can be reused.

 

They can be purchased, and replaced, individually if they have any corrosion or rust on them


Edited by Numbchux, 01 March 2018 - 04:19 PM.


#9 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 01 March 2018 - 11:30 AM

Yep, Subaru head bolts are torque to yield, not torque to angle, so they can be reused.

 

They can be purchased, and replaced, individually if they have any corrosion or rust on them

 

I think you meant they are *not* torque to yield. Yield implies plastic deformation of the bolt:

 

torque to yield fastener (TTY) is mounting hardware in the form of a fastener which is torqued beyond the state of elasticity and therefore undergoes plastic deformation, causing it to become permanently elongated.

 

GD



#10 carfreak85

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Posted 01 March 2018 - 12:46 PM

I was under the impression that OEM EJ head bolts were TTY.  This is not the case?  They can be reused indefinitely?



#11 matt167

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Posted 01 March 2018 - 01:34 PM

Very common thought by many is they are tty, but they are not..

#12 idosubaru

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Posted 01 March 2018 - 01:55 PM

Subaru says not to replace them and this has been standard practice across countless subaru people/shops for decades.  I don't undersatnd why anyone would believe otherwise amidst such massive evidence.

 

inspect them for damage and clean/prep them, but for an average head gasket job there's no replacement needed.

 

Ideas are borrowed from other platforms, time periods, and manufacturers, the "degrees" step in the FSM, or the disingenuous Fel-Pro recommendations to replace them and believe it - causing some confusion. 



#13 matt167

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Posted 01 March 2018 - 02:12 PM

I've had straight arguments about the head bolt thing with supposed Subaru professionals, WRX heads and other various people. But it is in the manuals in the head bolt torque section where they can be reused.



#14 Numbchux

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Posted 01 March 2018 - 04:18 PM

I think you meant they are *not* torque to yield. Yield implies plastic deformation of the bolt:

 

torque to yield fastener (TTY) is mounting hardware in the form of a fastener which is torqued beyond the state of elasticity and therefore undergoes plastic deformation, causing it to become permanently elongated.

 

GD

 

Yep, completely botched the description there.....thanks for the correction.



#15 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 02 March 2018 - 12:40 PM

I was under the impression that OEM EJ head bolts were TTY.  This is not the case?  They can be reused indefinitely?

 

Gates (one of the many reasons I no longer trust them) publishes a document stating they are TTY and require replacement. 

 

The FSM says to inspect them and replace if damaged. 

 

We have a big box of head bolts. When we need one - typically due to thread damage/corrosion - we just grab what we need and put it through the parts washer with the rest. I have probably only bought one or two in all the years. 

 

Over 500 HP we use ARP studs. Otherwise we just use whatever used bolts we have from the previous engine, etc. I've never even heard of a bolt failure in all my years. Block threads are another story. I charge straight out the a$$ for stripped head bolt threads. It's not a fun repair and requires custom made tooling. The dealer will throw the block away if a head bolt hole strips out. It's a non-recoverable failure to them. 

 

GD


Edited by GeneralDisorder, 02 March 2018 - 12:42 PM.


#16 3Pin

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Posted 03 March 2018 - 11:28 AM

I have used fel pro HG's like 10x with long term success.   Have switched from about 3 years ago from using ebay timing belt/water pump kits to name brand as the bearings were crap on the idlers included in the inexpensive kits.



#17 Fairtax4me

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Posted 04 March 2018 - 12:05 PM

Aftermarket head bolts I've had some problems with the threads and read of a few breaking. If they're original Subaru bolts reuse them. If they're aftermarket I replace them just as precaution. Better to spend the money on New head bolts than to have a used one snap off in the block and have to $@&%# around with getting the broken end out.

#18 xdeadeye1

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Posted 04 March 2018 - 04:15 PM

Thanks for the replies.

 

Ill check for the Head bolts if they are Subaru, ill re use them.     What am I looking for to know that for sure?

 

I'm getting up the resolve to do this job today.   I put the car on a jack and removed belly pan.   I started it and let it get up to temperature.   Trying to make sure its the heads that are leaking and not some stupid hose somewhere.  

 

I can see that the passenger side front of the head is seeping oil it seems.

 

I got 2 puddles  of coolant  one is coming off the cross member at the rear of the oil pan,, the other is further back on the driver side. 

 

I cant see the leak happening.  but I'm pretty sure its from the drivers side head.     So I guess I'm just going to do the job.  

 

I just don't want to do all this and put it together and find out its some cross over pipe pin hole.  Maybe I can do a hillbilly pressure test on it when I get the engine out.   (fill pipe with water and plug one end and blow.)

 

This wasn't leaking when I bought it.

 

I think maybe that catalytic converter problem I had,, caused pressure in my exhaust,, and blew the head gasket or something.  It never over heated.

 

PS.  Thank you very much for taking time to answer questions


Edited by xdeadeye1, 04 March 2018 - 04:18 PM.


#19 forester2002s

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Posted 04 March 2018 - 06:52 PM

It might help to clean the engine before you get too far in to this.
Buy a spray-can of engine-shampoo, and follow the instructions.
It's much easier to find the source of oil leaks on a clean engine.
And much nicer to work on...


Edited by forester2002s, 04 March 2018 - 07:21 PM.


#20 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 04 March 2018 - 08:50 PM

The really early gaskets (99 to early 02) had problems with coolant weeping. If the gaskets were done after 02 then they shouldn't have this problem.

Regardless- just pull it and reseal it. Change water pump, all the hoses (dealer), and the coolant cross over o-rings.

GD

#21 xdeadeye1

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 12:41 PM

I thought I had found an Aisin timing kit with water pump.. But I contacted the seller on ebay  and they said it doesn't fit. 

 

its for a 2000 outback wagon 2.5  automatic  ,,  Anyone have a source where they get theirs?

 

otherwise,, ill just go buy the gates kit,,, Chinese stuff and all.



#22 Fairtax4me

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 07:21 PM

https://www.amazon.c...-V3L&ref=plSrch
Just bought one of those a few months ago. All top quality OE stuff.

#23 xdeadeye1

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Posted 16 March 2018 - 01:50 AM

yeah that same kit is on ebay.TKF-001.  I sent message to seller to ask if it would fit. 

 

they said no.    Wonder why.  I know you know 20x more than they do.  So ill get it.



#24 idosubaru

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Posted 16 March 2018 - 07:19 AM

yeah that same kit is on ebay.TKF-001.  I sent message to seller to ask if it would fit. 

 

they said no.    Wonder why.  I know you know 20x more than they do.  So ill get it.

 

those are the correct pulleys, tensioner, and water pump for your car. 

 

Aisin says this, which is probably all the ebay guys are looking at:

http://www.aisinafte...IT.10-07-11.pdf

 

 

 

I think it comes down to the "2 timing belt" thing.  prepare to be even more confused, this was a confusing topic for a while..and well, it still is: 

 

http://www.ultimates...ation-inclosed/

 

http://www.ultimates...lt-differences/



#25 Fairtax4me

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Posted 16 March 2018 - 10:07 PM

Hmmm... This one has me a bit raffled.
As for the "2 timing belts" I've heard of that in the past but it was usually in reference to the difference between the phase 1 and phase 2 engines.

I searched the part numbers for the belt and it does look like Subaru specs a one belt (13028-AA21B) for the Legacy 99-05, and a different belt (13028-AA231) for Impreza, Forester, and Baja of the same years. It also covers some models in the 09+ range.

Why the difference? I have no clue. Never knew there was a difference, and I'm pretty sure I've put a few of those Aisin TKF-001 kits on a few Legacy/outback models from the 00-04 years. Although admittedly, the only thing I've ever paid attention to in the listing is the water pump, Front t-stat vs bottom , and the tensioner.

Aisin does list a kit TKF-010 that they say is for the Legacy 2.5 99-05, though I can't find anything to verify that the belt is the only difference. I guess I'll order one and see what the deal is.
Either that or get my hands on the two different belts and see if there's an actual difference other than the part number.

IDOSubaru thanks for the link above. Searching their site I found this: http://aisinaftermar...ed_NOV_2017.pdf
Which lead to the info listed above. It looks as though the TKF-007 kit was originally intended to cover the 00-05 legacy, but the info wasn't properly listed. Amazon says TKF-007 fits 01 Legacy, so does Rockauto's interchange.
https://www.amazon.c...Sc8L&ref=plSrch

https://www.rockauto...onent kit,16088 < This one shows the superceded kit, but includes in the info the number for the old kit. out of stock.

Edited by Fairtax4me, 16 March 2018 - 10:26 PM.





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