1991 Legacy Wagon..gramma taken to cleaners?

[grammajudy]

Bought my girl new. 160K miles. Driven about twice a week (little old lady drives to church and to foot doctor and that's about it). She sat from Jan 1 through May 1 during horrible winter when I was ill. My son jumped it and I drove it to Subaru garage because of another ongoing issue. They said I need new battery, terminal cables and terminal fuse box because they cannot get it to start without jumping it. So there goes 800 bucks right from the get go. Ok..we cannot find out what else is wrong unless the thing runs. My old girls leaks oil (needs new gasket) but I keep her full. Same with all the other leaks...Go into Minute Lube about once every two months and they fill up all the leaky places (free). But she has been running wonderfully. EXCEPT...NOW HERE IS THE CORE PROBLEM (Aside from the expensive battery repair). She goes through a monthly cycle of not starting. She will start up fine half the time. Then all of a sudden, she won't start just turns over and over...until I do this: put in neutral, put on emergency brake, push gas almost all the way to the floor, then crank .....then she sputters, and spits and starts with a roar. Smoke pouring out the back. (not black, but gray...I think...hard to see when you are at the wheel). Mind you I only drive about three times a week. So I've been doing this for about 3 years. Finally, I decided to see what was wrong. Naturally, for the mechanic (not a subaru garage) she did not do it. He kept it for two weeks and it started up perfectly every time.My son suggested I go to a subaru dealer who probably know problems this subaru had. I am nervous. I don't want to end up redoing the car completely but so far...800 bucks..not a good sign. You see, my grandson really wants to learn about how to repair cars and this will be his project. He loves anything mechanical. His dad will help him, and I will pay for parts. So if you were to guess ..off the top..what would make a car start perfectly one day and suddenly not the next? Weather is not related to this (does same thing in all kinds of weather, same kind of gas, etc). Once they get it on the diagnostic machine I am sure they will want to do EVERYTHING to it. And I will proceed with caution.

[grammajudy]

BTW...it's standard transmission and not a turbo. WHen I do the hard start, I push in the clutch and gas to the floor.

[Subaru Scott]

Sounds like you probably need to have the fuel injector o-rings replaced. That is fairly common on that car for the age and mileage. It should not be an expensive repair, mostly labor. I would try to find a local independent shop that specializes in Subarus. Taking it to a dealer can get very expensive. I know, I used to work at them.

[1 Lucky Texan]

does the hard start relate to how long the car sits?

 

(does kinda seem like it's flooding)

[DaveT]

Gas pedal to floor while cranking is clear flood mode.

 

The coolant temperature sensor / engine temperature sensor could fail intermittently and cause weird hard starting. Usually causes other problems, like high Idle when hot though.

 

Like mentioned in the previous post, if fuel is leaking from the injector, that would cause a flooded condition.

 

5 months sitting is plenty long enough to destroy a battery. And sitting also accelerates corrosion, due to moisture condensing on everything, and staying around since no engine heat periodically to dry it.

[1 Lucky Texan]

low use is considered 'severe duty' so, 'catching-up' on skipped maintenance PLUS doing a repair is gonna be expensive if you pay for someone else's labor.

[Numbchux]

Yep, definitely flooding. That much is very clear.

 

Bad connection at the coolant temp sensor is the only thing I can think of that would intermittently cause it to flood that badly.

 

There are plenty of other things that can cause problems, but I don't think any of them would be that severe.

[Chrisandjoy84]

Possible sensor issue. One sensor that gets overlooked is the mass airflow sensor and cam sensor. Isn't white smoke a sign of worn out rings? And too much gas?

Possible sensor issue. One sensor that gets overlooked is the mass airflow sensor and cam sensor. Isn't white smoke a sign of worn out rings? And too much gas? 800 for a battery and cable replacement is way too much

Edited May 2, 2017 by Chrisandjoy84

[rocketman]

I think I would start with a couple of cans of dry gas and fresh fuel,non ethinol if you can get it.

[DaveT]

Hmm, sitting ouside, maybe old gas with condensation isn't helping.

[Subaru Scott]

Oh, I forgot to add, 800 for battery, cables, and a fuse box?? I've never seen a fuse box go bad. You should be able to get a top-of-the-line battery and cables installed for around 200. I doubt the cables are bad either, probably just need cleaning. Find another garage.

[DaveT]

I haven't paid anyone to work on a car in decades, but yeah, 800 for that sounds high, to say the least.

[Numbchux]

800 sounds so high, I'm assuming there was something else replaced. "terminal fuse box" is not very definitive...

 

I have seen a fuse box and cables (on a first gen legacy) destroyed due to corrosion. 

[1 Lucky Texan]

800 sounds so high, I'm assuming there was something else replaced. "terminal fuse box" is not very definitive...

 

I have seen a fuse box and cables (on a first gen legacy) destroyed due to corrosion. 

 

yeah, I was wondering about that - rodent damage, corrosion....?

[grammajudy]

Car still doing the same thing after paying a Subaru Dealer Garage a total of $1733...NOT HAPPY! REALLY FEEL SCREWED.

After three weeks of this and that's they called and said...it was fine. No problems starting.  They are to bring the care around and no one showed..finally I saw the repair manager and the mechanic leaning over the hood with an "Oh SHIP" look. It didn't start without the HARD START (gas pedal to the floor while cranking). Said it might be air intake...so a week later I call. "well it's stared fine every day and we think the problem is gone". I picked it up today....it started fine. Drove for 3 miles, stopped and it needed the hard start again. Drove a little longer. No hard start. Drove a little longer...Hard start. Same problem as before NOTHING different. First a little white smoke comes out, then followed by some black smoke as the car stammers and stutters like chitty chitty bang bang car. Then It is ok.  YOU WOULD THINK A SUBARU TRAINED MECHANIC WOULD KNOW, RIGHT?  (sorry for yelling). 

 Here is what they did:

Replaced 4 fuel injectors, injector spacers, injector rings 8 o rings (two diff kinds)....Labor $345 Parts $715...the reason they wrote? "replaced the failed fuel injectors and o rings causing fuel to fill the cylinders causing a hard start coincident. "

 

Replace Battery and cables : 
  Labor   $460 (whatever that is)

  Battery     $122

  Battery Cable  $100

  Terminal    $17.82

 

It took them a month....I have no idea why....they said something about the guy who managed the repair being sick for two weeks....and yet they did not call. Said it was fixed all that time?  They want my money, but I could almost hear them groan when I called back to say the problem is still there. Wouldn't you think they would be able to call someone in the Subaru company to get expert advice? I am just sick at spending this much money and it's NOT FIXED. It is EXACTLY THE SAME.

 

By the way...THANK YOU VERY VERY MUCH. So would the sensor issue mentioned by Chrisandjoy84 be something a Subaru trained mechanic would know? I know it's an old car but I feel like they just don't care. I even told them I was interested in buying a car...from their lot...wouldn't that kind of make you want to REALLY do a good job? So so discouraged I could cry....in fact...I did a little. I hate getting taken. I'd say who did the work but don't know if the rules allow it.

[Subaru Scott]

Sorry grammajudy, but yes you have been taken. And no, it's not against the rules to tell who took your money. And no, there is no reason for a competent shop to ever have to call Subaru for advice on a 1991 model car. They should have figured it out by now. You really need to find an independent shop that specializes in Subaru. You have one of the most reliable cars on the planet. My 91 has 500,000 miles and has never had any major engine work done. Turn them in, stop payment, whatever you have to do. They are incompetent!

[1 Lucky Texan]

call SOA and have a regional rep get involved.

 

you have so much money involved, you need for Subaru to make things right. Sure, you maybe need to buy new parts on a car that old. But , it should also have been properly diagnosed and repaired and you should NOT be wasting money on 'troubleshooting by the law of averages' (keep throwing parts on it until it works) and wasted tech. labor charges.

[Numbchux]

call SOA and have a regional rep get involved.

 

 

This!

 

 

 

 

It is completely possible, and understandable, that a mechanic would have trouble with something like this. Intermittent issues can be a complete nightmare to diagnose. I work in parts at a fairly large dealership, the one mechanic that was around when first-gen Legacies regularly came in is paid extra as a trainer for everyone else. It costs the shop considerably more to have him working on something. So either they had someone less experienced working on it (to try to save them, and therefore you, money. Or because they don't have a master Subaru tech), or they did have their most experienced guy on it, and that's expensive.

 

The OE parts catalogs for those are very different than we are used to (Not too bad, if you've got a parts guy who's been in Subaru since the '70s, and still has the old paper catalogs, like we do. But without that, yuck), and the parts are less available. So it's very possible that it took multiple tries to even get the right parts, and/or the right part might take a week or more to arrive. Which could explain for a serious delay.

 

 

Obviously I'm trying to give them the benefit of the doubt, that they really are trying to do right by you, maybe that's not accurate, but I'm certainly not comfortable trashing a shop from across the country based on one side of the story. BUT, they obviously have not communicated this stuff to you. Maybe they've spent a lot of time/money on it, and aren't charging you for it. It's certainly possible that the huge bills you've had are still only a fraction of full price. But they need to be clear with that, and it doesn't sound like they have been. So yes, get in touch with corporate, and get someone looking over their shoulder.

[1 Lucky Texan]

^^ great post.

[GeneralDisorder]

The dealer should have a select monitor and someone that knows how to use it. They should be checking things like the coolant temp sensor and throttle position sensor live data while wiggling the harness and connectors.

 

Injectors do not need to be replaced - they can be TESTED for proper operation and only the o-rings and insulators replaced.

 

They are "troubleshooting with Visa" and it definitely shows. This is not how it's done.

 

I don't know where you are located, but there are people around that can watch live sensor data on these cars. You need a special SSM to USB cable, a laptop, and the EVOScan software and you can do the important things that a Subaru Select Monitor can do.

 

GD

[grammajudy]

Thank you very much for the great ideas! It seemed to be a less experienced mechanic....When you suggest calling SOA, is that Subaru Owners of America? 

 

I will go back to them and suggest what General Disorder suggested: "The dealer should have a select monitor and someone that knows how to use it. They should be checking things like the coolant temp sensor and throttle position sensor live data while wiggling the harness and connectors." 

   

The mechanic did not even suggest that for a second. Seems to me that the throttle position sensor would be the thing that would be checked....but again, I don't know. 

Thank you with all my heart. So glad I found this place. Will let you know how it all ends.

grammajudy

[forester2002s]

SOA = Subaru Of America

www.subaru.com

Edited May 27, 2017 by forester2002s

[idosubaru]

You need a "Diagnosis" not guesses. The shops are just guessing, not diagnosing.

 

Guessing is fine if it's relatively cheap. I was helping someone out today while traveling and I told them I was guessing and couldn't diagnose without time and my garage with me. It was a $26 guess, that's reasonable. And I happened to be right. Pretty sad I can guess $26 and get it right with hardly any tools and a dealer full of far more training, equipment and experience gets it wrong for $1,700.

 

Can I come work on your car? I'll fix it for $500.

 

If I was going to guess I would never have guessed fuel injectors, they don't fail like that, orings usually leak and smell externally, all four injectors failing at the same time is unlikely to say the least. Poor choice in multiple ways.

 

1. First step: OBD codes: has the check engine light ever come on? (weird this hasn't been mentioned yet?)

 

2. Have the codes been checked for pending/codes in memory (if equipped) ?

 

3. Have the spark plugs, wires and air filter ever been replaced?

 

I was working on an engine (not mine) a few weeks ago. Started beautifully for few years, then one day it starts sometimes and not others and floods easily. The air filter was a matt of clotted dirty mess. Started it without the air filter in and it cranked right up. New air filter and no problems since. Probably not the case here but let's at least rule out simple stuff.

[Numbchux]

Dealerships are basically a franchise of Subaru corporate. So they're connected, but the dealership has a lot of freedom to do things their way (to some extent, of course), and corporate will not look at every transaction. This means there can be some serious variation in service quality from one dealership to the next. So yea, it sounds like you need to go over their heads, and get corporate involved.

 

 

You could go to a different shop, and start over. But they started this mess, and didn't fix it, a good shop should fix it with a considerable discount (if not for free) moving forward. But you might have to put some pressure on them from above to get it done.

Edited May 30, 2017 by Numbchux

[grammajudy]

THANK YOU TO THE REPLY BELOW AND FOR FINDING THE PROBLEM. YOU SAVED ME MORE MONEY AND PROBLEMS..THANK YOU THANK YOU.  I copied your reply (not your name) and took it to the shop. They found a more experienced mechanic who "got a code" ...(they said they did NOT get a code and tried that before but I doubt that). They did replace it for free. NOW IT STARTS UP BEAUTIFULLY...after years of having to deal with this. So excited. CANNOT THANK YOU ENOUGH. 

For those of you who want to know...they replaced the coolant temp sensor......now it works fine. I live in Boise, if I know anyone with a Subaru problem...I am sending them to your shop in Portland.

His original post:

Elite Master of the Subaru

• 
• Members
• 20,934 posts

• Portland

Posted 26 May 2017 - 11:25 PM

The dealer should have a select monitor and someone that knows how to use it. They should be checking things like the coolant temp sensor and throttle position sensor live data while wiggling the harness and connectors. 

Injectors do not need to be replaced - they can be TESTED for proper operation and only the o-rings and insulators replaced.

They are "troubleshooting with Visa" and it definitely shows. This is not how it's done.

I don't know where you are located, but there are people around that can watch live sensor data on these cars. You need a special SSM to USB cable, a laptop, and the EVOScan software and you can do the important things that a Subaru Select Monitor can do.