the_bard Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 I do believe it's time to get out of the computer repair business and into supplying tires for WJM... job security right there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subeman90 Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 it is proplerly aligned if you do with cars what he does. If he was an off roader then yes that is waaaayyyyyy out of spec. but if you are a cone lover like he is I'd say that sounds damn good to me for settings. Think of it this way: when youu corner you end up wearing the outer edge right. Well he is running with a bias toward the inner edge so that when the forces push the car to be on the outer edge it actually corners on the whole tire and not with a bias to the outer edge (more tread on the ground = faster corners and better handling). Without a pic to diagram it, it is a little harder to understand but if you could see a diagram you'd totally understand it. plus if you have ever seen him drive...well that would make sense also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WJM Posted March 8, 2006 Author Share Posted March 8, 2006 I get free tires. So i mostly dont care about what my alignment is as long as the car handles perfectly in my mind. However, any toe in or toe out presents return to center issues during steering inputs...car tracking straight, etc...So i ALWAYS set ZERO toe front and rear. I am NOT a fan of making a toe adjustment to make a car do something...aka toe out rear to make it rotate..toe out front to make turn in better....etc... However, it takes -3.5* camber on the RX to make the BFG's i have hook up and I still wear the outer edges more so than the inside. Same with race tires. They still wear the outer well before the center or inner. However, I am going to add more caster to the RX, i am looking for a total of 6~7 deg caster, and I can run about -2.5 camber...that will aid in braking and accel grip, plus lessen the stright line inner tire wear. As for the Outback...previously I had never done any alighment on the car...toe was 0 front and rear...and 0 camber. The Michelins I had were hard as a rock and it took ~10k miles before they STARTED to show wear at all. Ofcourse, the grip level was zero. Currently, the ContiSportContact2's are already at 2/32'nds for autox. These are the tires that I ran on in STS for nationals (The 225/45/17 version, the STX tires, 245/35/17's are currently on the car) and are SUPER grippy...after all, they are the OE Porsche tire. They need ~-2.5 to -3.0 to work properly with ~+3 to +4 caster. -2.5 and +4 is the best I could get out of the outback with the current camber plates. Its almost perfect. I do need a larger front swaybar to control body roll...possibly a rear as well. As for tire life...each trip to a given destination is a sea of cones. Straightline accel is the LEAST of my concerns. MAXIMUM cornering velocity and braking performance ARE my most important concerns. Every corner is is usually at 7/10ths....which for most people is 20/10ths of their ability and 30/10's of their car's ability. The BFG's are HORRIBLE tires in reality...they have a 400 tread rating and last approx 5k miles in an enviornment inwhich I am cornering alot. I do NOT autox on these tires. I have a set of R-compound tires for that. However, with alot of interstate and city driving...I have seen as much as 10k out of them...and they usually either end up chording the outer edge...or they end up perfectly smooth all the way around. So far with the outback...I have never destroyed a set from wear...I had 3 michelins develop tumors and one come apart on the interstate. The Continental All seasons are still almost new...while the ContiSportsContact2's are still intact with ~4k on them. On top of all that...I do all of my alignments myself, NEVER has anyone else aligned any of my cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 I get free tires. So i mostly dont care about what my alignment is as long as the car handles perfectly in my mind. However, any toe in or toe out presents return to center issues during steering inputs...car tracking straight, etc...So i ALWAYS set ZERO toe front and rear. I am NOT a fan of making a toe adjustment to make a car do something...aka toe out rear to make it rotate..toe out front to make turn in better....etc... However, it takes -3.5* camber on the RX to make the BFG's i have hook up and I still wear the outer edges more so than the inside. Same with race tires. They still wear the outer well before the center or inner. However, I am going to add more caster to the RX, i am looking for a total of 6~7 deg caster, and I can run about -2.5 camber...that will aid in braking and accel grip, plus lessen the stright line inner tire wear. As for the Outback...previously I had never done any alighment on the car...toe was 0 front and rear...and 0 camber. The Michelins I had were hard as a rock and it took ~10k miles before they STARTED to show wear at all. Ofcourse, the grip level was zero. Currently, the ContiSportContact2's are already at 2/32'nds for autox. These are the tires that I ran on in STS for nationals (The 225/45/17 version, the STX tires, 245/35/17's are currently on the car) and are SUPER grippy...after all, they are the OE Porsche tire. They need ~-2.5 to -3.0 to work properly with ~+3 to +4 caster. -2.5 and +4 is the best I could get out of the outback with the current camber plates. Its almost perfect. I do need a larger front swaybar to control body roll...possibly a rear as well. As for tire life...each trip to a given destination is a sea of cones. Straightline accel is the LEAST of my concerns. MAXIMUM cornering velocity and braking performance ARE my most important concerns. Every corner is is usually at 7/10ths....which for most people is 20/10ths of their ability and 30/10's of their car's ability. The BFG's are HORRIBLE tires in reality...they have a 400 tread rating and last approx 5k miles in an enviornment inwhich I am cornering alot. I do NOT autox on these tires. I have a set of R-compound tires for that. However, with alot of interstate and city driving...I have seen as much as 10k out of them...and they usually either end up chording the outer edge...or they end up perfectly smooth all the way around. So far with the outback...I have never destroyed a set from wear...I had 3 michelins develop tumors and one come apart on the interstate. The Continental All seasons are still almost new...while the ContiSportsContact2's are still intact with ~4k on them. On top of all that...I do all of my alignments myself, NEVER has anyone else aligned any of my cars. Any links to diy alignment help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjo Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Any links to diy alignment help? yeah, i'd like to not drop 50 bucks every time i need it to be alligned... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WJM Posted March 8, 2006 Author Share Posted March 8, 2006 I cheat and use the Dealer's Hunter rack. However...I used to use strings like the F1 teams do....then I used vodka and my eyes...that works great too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 I cheat and use the Dealer's Hunter rack. However...I used to use strings like the F1 teams do....then I used vodka and my eyes...that works great too. [stroking soul stripe and gazing up]yeah...vodka...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger83 Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 -2.5 camber. I've NEVER had a set of tires last more than 6k miles. I DRIVE...i dont sit in a car and go A to B. Oh, how many trophies have you won? You mean you have a competition license and compete in autocross, time trials, road races, performance rallys? So you changed all the suspension bushings to improve feedback? What did you do with the rear swaybar to minimize understeer? And how did you solve the problem of not being able to increase the tire section width? What have you done to the engine internals to increase output so that your drivin' machine is faster than a Ford Explorer? Oh, sorry, what you really mean is you DRIVE around on the street. At least no one will laugh at you because it's a station wagon. What did that poor Subaru do to you? Obey posted speeds.....Unpimp ze auto.http://previews.thenewsmarket.com/Pr...3986_33414.wmv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nkx Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Oh, how many trophies have you won? You mean you have a competition license and compete in autocross, time trials, road races, performance rallys? So you changed all the suspension bushings to improve feedback? What did you do with the rear swaybar to minimize understeer? And how did you solve the problem of not being able to increase the tire section width? What have you done to the engine internals to increase output so that your drivin' machine is faster than a Ford Explorer? Oh, sorry, what you really mean is you DRIVE around on the street. At least no one will laugh at you because it's a station wagon. What did that poor Subaru do to you? Obey posted speeds.....Unpimp ze auto.http://previews.thenewsmarket.com/Pr...3986_33414.wmv yes. he does. search on old school. every other thread on suspension or eeking out horsepower has at least 1 post from will in it. do a bit of research on his background before making assumptions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger83 Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 yes. he does. search on old school. every other thread on suspension or eeking out horsepower has at least 1 post from will in it. do a bit of research on his background before making assumptions.I see his posts but I still don't see anything that shows me he's doing any driving in competition Sorry, the car still looks like a silly poser-mobile to me. And a waste of money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamal Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Oh, how many trophies have you won? You mean you have a competition license and compete in autocross, time trials, road races, performance rallys? So you changed all the suspension bushings to improve feedback? What did you do with the rear swaybar to minimize understeer? And how did you solve the problem of not being able to increase the tire section width? What have you done to the engine internals to increase output so that your drivin' machine is faster than a Ford Explorer? Oh, sorry, what you really mean is you DRIVE around on the street. At least no one will laugh at you because it's a station wagon. What did that poor Subaru do to you? Obey posted speeds.....Unpimp ze auto.http://previews.thenewsmarket.com/Pr...3986_33414.wmv And that's not getting into the negative effects you'll have with dynamic camber and toe. That low will cause problems for sure. Looks like the control arms and lateral links would be above level. Glad I'm not the only person not saying "dude that looks sweet" What is this, the members car gallery at nasioc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Handtool Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Here's some decent info on DIY alignments: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=645484&page=1&pp=25 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger83 Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 /////Glad I'm not the only person not saying "dude that looks sweet" What is this, the members car gallery at nasioc? 18's, gotta have 18's..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 17s are for GO, 18s are for SHOW! lol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WJM Posted March 9, 2006 Author Share Posted March 9, 2006 I see his posts but I still don't see anything that shows me he's doing any driving in competition Sorry, the car still looks like a silly poser-mobile to me. And a waste of money. I see.... Poser-mobile? Sorry, but it'll blow most anything out of the water in terms of handling when you take the power delivery out of the equation. I've spent a total of $800 on the ENTIRE car...including initial purchase and items that I've replaced to keep it running. I'd say I'm doing pretty good right now...especially seeing as how I've got 3x's that in the RX. Plus the RX has full bushing kit. Thats the next item for the Outback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damien Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 yah...it is definitely sucking autoX looks fun tho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger83 Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 I see.... Poser-mobile? Sorry, but it'll blow most anything out of the water in terms of handling when you take the power delivery out of the equation. I've spent a total of $800 on the ENTIRE car...including initial purchase and items that I've replaced to keep it running. I'd say I'm doing pretty good right now...especially seeing as how I've got 3x's that in the RX. Plus the RX has full bushing kit. Thats the next item for the Outback. So how do you get $4,000 to $5,000 worth of coil-overs, springs, bushings, and wheels for $800? From what I could find ADR wheels cost close to $300 each. Even the cheapest 17" alloy rims on the market are over $100 each. So you got the STi units and the tires for $400? ContiSportContacts - 245/35r17 not listed, but 225/45 r 17 are $142 each on tirerack = $564 plus shippping. You need to be our fleet manager. I could understand doing something to a Legacy sedan, but if you can be competitive in the heavier Outback wagon, congrats. What are you competing against? And a caution to everyone else - if you set your car up like this, make sure your seat belts are tight going over railroad tracks, or you will crack your head on the ceiling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 So how do you get $4,000 to $5,000 worth of coil-overs, springs, bushings, and wheels for $800? since i've got the uncanny ability to read and remember, i'll help with this one. he hasn't got the bushings yet except the steering rack which aren't expensive. i just bought impreza urethane bushings for $30 Plus the RX has full bushing kit. Thats the next item for the Outback. and he said tires are free. I get free tires. i'm not sure the need to completely criticize what he's doing, he's having fun with it and likes the car. this is almost commical in a way though. i wouldn't do what he's doing with it either, but look forward to see what him or any others do. he's quite creative and comes up with good ideas and information that noone else has. i like him doing what he's always doing...being an inovator and sharing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LosDiosDeVerde86 Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 I see his posts but I still don't see anything that shows me he's doing any driving in competition Sorry, the car still looks like a silly poser-mobile to me. And a waste of money. the more i look at it, the more i agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LosDiosDeVerde86 Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 yah...it is definitely sucking autoX looks fun tho hey, come on now. you're new, i see that, but this isn't i-club. be nice and be constructive. i, personally, think it looks silly meaning that i wouldn't do that, but he loves it, he loves it, and more power to him. a lot of people think that my car looks stupid or "sucks" but i love it and thats all that matters. but to say "it is definitely sucking" is for another forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WJM Posted March 9, 2006 Author Share Posted March 9, 2006 i see the lol there...so its not ment seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WJM Posted March 10, 2006 Author Share Posted March 10, 2006 So how do you get $4,000 to $5,000 worth of coil-overs, springs, bushings, and wheels for $800? From what I could find ADR wheels cost close to $300 each. Even the cheapest 17" alloy rims on the market are over $100 each. So you got the STi units and the tires for $400? ContiSportContacts - 245/35r17 not listed, but 225/45 r 17 are $142 each on tirerack = $564 plus shippping. You need to be our fleet manager. I got 2 sets of slightly used 2004 STi struts for...well, nothing. Simply doing favors and installing parts for freinds got me those. I sold off the stock and aftermarket springs that came with them. Kept the tophats. Bam, there are my shocks. Those shocks are perfectly fine for most anything up to a 450lb spring. 450 is the end of its effectivness tho... Next, the only bushings I have installed are steering rack bushings. A full bushing set for the Legacy is ~$150, plus ~$90 for the offset bushings I'd need for the rear of the front control arm...then ~$50 for the front control arm bushings AT the crossmember from Super pro. So I *would* have ~$320 in bushings and I'd be done. But I've only spent $30 so far for the OUTBACK. Next...wheels. I happen to have a friend who has a WRX who got tires of the look and lack of width of the ADR wheels...he has since purchased a set of Rota Slipstreams in 17X9 for some meaty tires for street use. The ADR's are a little blemished from exteneded track use and minor rashing from foreign objects contacting the wheels at high speeds. I paid $50 for the set with center caps. So far my total is $80. Tires...the 245/35/17s are not listed on tire rack...ODD! However, if you call and ask for them they are avalible. However, I did not pay a dime for them. Boxer4racing.com in conjunction with Continental tire USA decided to see just how good their high performance tire stacked up against the Hankook RS2 Z212, Falken ST215 and ST615, Khumo MX, Yoko Neova...and a few others. In testing...only the hankook was faster and only one run...once they got heat in them, they were slower. Unfortunatly, no Neova's were avalible...so we didnt get to test those...they are VERY stickey. So...we got a sponsorship to compete the rest of the season with the SportContact2's and go to Nationals in Topeka and do our best to win. I dont know how many sets we got...but there were multiple sets of 225s, 235's and 245's in various sidewall heights and compounds. The weapon was a 2000 Impreza 2.5 RS sedan. Steven Rakins and Jon Krolewiz were to run STX, I was to run STS, Tara Knoll STX Ladies, and Jane Rankins STS Ladies. The 2.5 RS is KNOWN to not be competitive nationally in those classes at this time. Steven ended up LEADING day 1, and ended up 4th overall after day 2. Jon was...well, caught out by rain day 1 and over driving the car on day 2. I ended up 25th out of 46 or so in STS...drying conditions on day 1 ment the fastest runs were made by 2nd drivers in the 3rd run group...day 2 I made the wrong tire choice and stayed put. Jane was 4th out of 4 in STSL...Tara on the otherhand ended up 2nd in STXL, beating last years National Champion. Overall, the results were actually good, and Conti got a TON of looks and inquiries over the tires and the HUGE shake up of STX and STXL... After that...it was done. There were tons of tires left. I took two sets of the 245/35's with me. Bam, free tires. Next... I could understand doing something to a Legacy sedan, but if you can be competitive in the heavier Outback wagon, congrats. What are you competing against? Just so happens Steven Rankins autox'd his 98 GT sedan in STS, STX, SM, FSP and Pro classes for many years. It was very competitive locally. In STX i am competing against mainly WRX's...Tara now has the setup from the Nationals RS on her 2000 2.5 RS...so I'm running against her locally. Last sunday's results netted me being 0.057 ahead of her at the end of the day. However, 4 WRXs infront of me still. Not far off tho... And a caution to everyone else - if you set your car up like this, make sure your seat belts are tight going over railroad tracks, or you will crack your head on the ceiling. The ride is not harsh at all. Its when you get that crazy JIC valving going on that you literally need 5 points to hold you in the seat over slight undulations in the road.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattlelegacy Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Hey man, for all the BS you're getting on this thread, I say ROCK ON. You're having a good time, enjoying yourself, and thats what life is all about. I think its lame people are bashing you. Just my 0.02. Now get some power under that hood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WJM Posted March 10, 2006 Author Share Posted March 10, 2006 Thanks. The only power mods will be what I can do in the class...that'll keep the mod $ down and the reliability up. I'll do a reflash on the ECU...header, high flow cat, stock STi resonator pipe and muffler, stock intake from a 97 Outback (makes more TQ) and thats it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damien Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 hey, come on now. you're new, i see that, but this isn't i-club. be nice and be constructive. i, personally, think it looks silly meaning that i wouldn't do that, but he loves it, he loves it, and more power to him. a lot of people think that my car looks stupid or "sucks" but i love it and thats all that matters. but to say "it is definitely sucking" is for another forum. Sorry...didn't mean to ruffle any feathers. "it is definitely sucking" is a quote from the funny VW clip that the guy posted above. I agree. More power to him. As I said before...It'd be fun to drive in autoX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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