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what year did subaru start their drive dy wire throttle


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20 replies to this topic

#1 mellow65

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 11:55 PM

because damn it i will never own one.

got a chance to drive a drive by wire throttle car and my god you could floor it and take your foot off the gas before the engine even trys to pick up RPMs

i will be sticking with cables thank you very much. some things aren't always better.

#2 svxpert

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 11:59 PM

which year/car did you drive?

#3 mellow65

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Posted 28 March 2007 - 02:18 AM

i have now driven two, the first one was a newer VW and well because i have no faith in VW i didn't think much of it. but i drove a 06 scion tc and was really not impressed by the throttle. sure i know im not racing and really in the real world it maybe better. it just felt to me that when i wanted the throttle to be somewhere it was not there. like in down shifting or even just trying to back it up. it just seemed weird when i tried to blip the throttle.

maybe im just anal, but i like that instant response

#4 subaruplatt

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Posted 28 March 2007 - 06:58 AM

I noticed that when you drive the auto around the city in 3rd you get much better response. It's is just that the auto is always trying to sneak in 4rth when the city speeds just don't justify it. :burnout:

#5 wtdash

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Posted 28 March 2007 - 09:06 AM

I don't know the answer to your question, but do agree that drive by wire is still "in its infancy". In addition to our '90 Legacy AWD, we bought an '07 RAV4 w/the V6. There's plenty of power (0-60 in 7 secs.), but I have to "play nice" w/the go pedal when accelerating, as there's a definite pause before the horses decide to get onboard if I just floor it. I don't even need the second 1/2 of the pedal travel as it doesn't use it!

I'm an avid reader of Consumer Reports and there have been more and more cars w/this same delay - many are VWs and Audis (which makes sense). I don't understand Why?.... Don't the Mfgs. test drive these before putting them into production? Maybe they are designed that way, but I don't understand it.....it actually makes it MORE dangerous when merging/pulling into traffic!

#6 Commuter

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Posted 28 March 2007 - 11:13 AM

I believe the revised Legacy in 2005 was the first to get it. I don't know about the Impreza platform vehicles. I had a courtesy car from the dealer last year (2006 Forester as I recall) that had it.

I drove about an hour on the highway and wasn't even aware of it. It felt like an ordinary throttle. I was stopped on my street, ready to turn left into my driveway when I hit the throttle quickly to about half way down in order to make my turn before an oncoming vehicle. Nothing happened for a few tenths of a second (felt a lot longer). Then it went. That fraction of a second closed up the gap between me and the oncoming vehicle obviously. I was in no danger, but it scared me a bit. I then remembered that these cars now have the electronic throttle.

During my remaining drive that day, I "played" with the throttle a bit. If you get on - off - on - off quickly in rapid succession, the system gets totally confused. By the second cycle, nothing was happening as I punched the gas, then the engine was reving as I was letting off the pedal. The poor thing didn't know what to do. This sort of throttle play is not something one would be doing in real world driving, but still, the algorithms have to be able to handle whatever is thrown at them.

I read a review of the Honda Civic Si where people were also complaining about its electronic throttle. I don't believe I have driven any other cars so equipped.

It's new to the automotive world. It's been in airplanes for a long time already (decades?). They have some bugs to work out. I can see that the system allows the manufacturer certain flexibility and safety aspects, but I can't imagine that it is saving them any cost or weight. Seems like a marginal endeavour, but I highly suspect it will become the norm.

By safety aspects, I mean reducing shock loads into the drivetrain, that sort of thing. Driver safety is another whole matter!

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#7 ferret

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Posted 28 March 2007 - 12:27 PM

Legacy/Outback as stated 2005. Forester N/A also 2005. Forester Turbo 2004. Impreza N/A 2005. WRX/STI IIRC 2002. So by 2005 all were drive by wire.

#8 nipper

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Posted 28 March 2007 - 01:55 PM

This is going to be another learning curve with every manufacturer to get it right.
Look at all the toyota complaints about lack of throttle/transmission downshift response.


nipper

#9 Andyjo

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Posted 28 March 2007 - 02:05 PM

Legacy/Outback as stated 2005. Forester N/A also 2005. Forester Turbo 2004. Impreza N/A 2005. WRX/STI IIRC 2002. So by 2005 all were drive by wire.

My 05 OBXT and i didn't notice if for a few days really. If you're really jerky with your foot you can notice a delay, but other than that i think it's very similar to a wire system, i don't really have any complaints about it ;)

#10 rlsimpso

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Posted 29 March 2007 - 01:33 PM

The servo throttle on the automatic subarus I have driven make them feel like diesels to me. Very slooow to respond compared to cable throttle.

The advantages are fewer parts. No separate solenoid for cruise control, no cables and linkages. I even want to say there is no throttle position sensor, since the servo should have that built in.

I want to know what the servo is going to cost to replace when it fails.

If you have a servo throttle subaru with an auto, try quickly flooring it and them immediately let off while going about 40 mph. Almost a second after doing this the 07 impreza I am driving at the moment will downshift from 4th to 2nd and sit in second gear going 40 for almost 2 seconds. Then go back to back to 4th. It is amazing how slow it is to respond so quick input compared to me 98 Legacy.

#11 ron917

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Posted 29 March 2007 - 06:54 PM

Also, no IAC valve.

The drive by wire throttle failed on my father in law's RAV4. On the Burlington-Bristol Bridge (near Philadelphia). In rush-hour traffic. He had to cross the bridge at idle - pissed off a lot of people! Don't know what it cost, because it was fixed under warrantee.

#12 86BRATMAN

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Posted 29 March 2007 - 09:21 PM

If our 06 has dbw I haven't noticed any delay with it. I've flogged the car on a couple occasions with not ill remarks towards it, other than "needs a turbo"

#13 The Dude

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Posted 29 March 2007 - 09:26 PM

I drive an '06 Forester with drive by wire. I have noticed that violently mashing the accelerator to the floor board results in a very noticable lag in engine response. A slightly slower and smoother depression of the gas pedal does the trick. Drive the car for a week and acclerator operation becomes second nature.

One the primary reasons manufactures have gone to drive by wire is to meet future pollution standards. It can also be used to increase mgp if required. Frankly, it removes control from the driver and gives it the manufacturer. You can mash the gas pedal all you want, but there is a manufacturer algorithm that has ultimate control on how much gas is actually delivered to the engine.

#14 nipper

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Posted 29 March 2007 - 09:44 PM

Just wait for brake (prius has a hybrid system that sucks when dynamic brakeing fails) by wire and steering by wire ...

Someone is going to be walking soon.

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#15 Gnuman

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Posted 30 March 2007 - 04:15 PM

Just wait for brake (prius has a hybrid system that sucks when dynamic brakeing fails) by wire and steering by wire ...

Someone is going to be walking soon.

nipper


Nah, we drive Subarus. the pre DBW models will be on the road for a looooong time yet. . . ;)

#16 DerFahrer

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Posted 30 March 2007 - 11:13 PM

The advantages are fewer parts. No separate solenoid for cruise control, no cables and linkages. I even want to say there is no throttle position sensor, since the servo should have that built in.


Also, no IAC valve.


Right on both accounts.

ALL that stuff is now completely contained within the little module on the throttle body.

Is it lighter? Of course. Is it more expensive? Actually, no. Yeah, a new drive-by-wire throttle body complete lists for $800, but price out a cruise control system piece by piece and the IAC valve too, and you'll come out more.

I have some quips with the drive-by-wire myself. I've driven a couple, and if they're 5-spd, I rev accidentally between gears. I'm used to disengaging the clutch ever so slightly before letting off the gas to be smooth, and for whatever reason, the old cable-style ones don't rev on me but the drive-by-wire ones do.

That's honestly about my only issue though.

Oh, and I'm fairly sure all Imprezas started using DBW in 05. I definitely know I've seen 02-04 WRXs with cable ones.

#17 86BRATMAN

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Posted 31 March 2007 - 10:27 AM

I have some quips with the drive-by-wire myself. I've driven a couple, and if they're 5-spd, I rev accidentally between gears. I'm used to disengaging the clutch ever so slightly before letting off the gas to be smooth, and for whatever reason, the old cable-style ones don't rev on me but the drive-by-wire ones do.

Oh, and I'm fairly sure all Imprezas started using DBW in 05. I definitely know I've seen 02-04 WRXs with cable ones.


I do the same thing, with the gas and shift tchnique. I haven't noticed any revving oin our 06 when I do it.

I'm fairly sure my friends 05 wrx doesn't dbw. But it has been a while since I helped him work on it.

#18 nipper

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Posted 31 March 2007 - 01:31 PM

Here is something to try, i know it works in Audis.
Can you stall your dbw car when engaging first gear. In an audi the DBW wont let it happen, don't know if a stick soobie will do the same (level ground of course).

nipper

#19 hankosolder2

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Posted 31 March 2007 - 01:41 PM

[quote name='subyluvr2212']Right on both accounts.

ALL that stuff is now completely contained within the little module on the throttle body.

Is it lighter? Of course. Is it more expensive? Actually, no. Yeah, a new drive-by-wire throttle body complete lists for $800, but price out a cruise control system piece by piece and the IAC valve too, and you'll come out more.
---
I think the issue is that if the DBW throttle body fails, the car is undriveable without changing an $800 part. Sure, the various components of a conventional cruise/iac/ throttle cable system could fail, but a.) not all at once, since they're seperate, independent parts and b.) the only failure which would render the car unusable would be the throttle cable. $30 and you're back on the road.

I've never driven a DBW system, but engineering in a "flat spot" during abrupt throttle inputs seems really dangerous. Sure, the car might accellerate briskly in a situation where you progressively operate the throttle, but in a "I misjudged the gap" (or any one of a number of other driving situations which call for rapid accelleration to prevent an accident), your instinct is going to be to mash the throttle. Very few people are going to have the presence of mind to progressively feed in the throttle in a panic situation.

Interestingly, BMW offers switchable throttle response times in some of their DBW cars. (I.e. when the car is in "sport" mode, it halves the throttle response time.) To me, that begs the question "why would you want less than then maximum throttle response speed in any mode?" I suspect the answer is to make smooth driving easier for the inept. Sad.

Nathan

#20 nipper

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Posted 31 March 2007 - 01:47 PM

[quote name='hankosolder2'][quote name='subyluvr2212']
Interestingly, BMW offers switchable throttle response times in some of their DBW cars. (I.e. when the car is in "sport" mode, it halves the throttle response time.) To me, that begs the question "why would you want less than then maximum throttle response speed in any mode?" I suspect the answer is to make smooth driving easier for the inept. Sad.

Nathan[/quote]

Sometimes settings like that are also programed into the valet key. They make the car less of a parking lot hot rod. Also when the daughter borrows the car ....

nipper

#21 86BRATMAN

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Posted 31 March 2007 - 06:01 PM

Here is something to try, i know it works in Audis.
Can you stall your dbw car when engaging first gear. In an audi the DBW wont let it happen, don't know if a stick soobie will do the same (level ground of course).

nipper


Well I can say yes, when we were first test driving the 06, the wife killed it quite a few times before getting the hang of it. She hadn't drove an awd stick in a long time, at least that was her excuse:)




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