Increase Subie milage with water power??

[Rooster2]

I have received a couple of emails talking about adding "water power" to cars to increase gas milage. I blew off the idea, as just too wierd. However, a friend emailed me this morning to say the topic was discussed for an hour or so on "Coast to Coast" the night talk radio show last night. "Coast" is pretty much about paranormal topics, so I figured "water power" fit their type of programming. I did however go to the "Coast" website to read their write up, and got me thinking.

 

Anyway, I googled in "water powered vehicles" to see what has been written. There were several links, one showing a Subaru with water being squirted into its carburetor (must have been an old car to have a carburetor), and a testimonial from one Subie owner praising the system for added mpg.

 

It looks and sounds like a scam, with much hype about benefits, little scientific description of how it works, and no independent studies documenting results. Still, to see the video of the system in action is pretty interesting and intriguing.

 

With all the public concern about high gas prices, it is easy to get people to look into alternatives. Has anyone here heard of this, or tried this on their car? Any testimonials?

[njdrsubaru]

:lol:

 

sorry i had to laugh at first... a few weeks ago i was experimenting with it... although it produced a very small amount of HHO (brown's gas) i decided to add a little acetone to the mixture.. OMG! i had a flame burst that sorta burned a few strings of hair :grin: anyways, i think its bogus, HHO is not enough to supply a large quantity to save fuel, unless u have a super duper system that can produce large amounts of "brown's gas". i use a little mix of acetone on my tank and that helps improve the MPG a bit, but its 3 oz per tank.

 

good luck on your research

[daehttub2000]

With Gas headed for +$4 a gallon, there's a huge opportunity for scam artists to take undue advantage of desperate people.

 

As a fan of technology and science, I woudl like to think that there are some things that can extend fuel mileage that will become more feasible as the cost of gasoline increases but I don't think water/methanol injection is one of them.

 

During World War II, the Vought F-4U Corsair carrier-based fighter had emergency water/methanol injection that provided a one shot emergency boost of power if an American pilot got in a jam against a Japanese Zero. However, it was understood that the engine was toast afterwards.

 

There was a discussion on the car talk board about water/methonal injection recently and I think the general conclusion was that it was a bunch of hooey.

 

If there was an economical way to get more mileage of out a car, it would have been implemented by now or would be patented and in development by a major company.

 

Oh well. Gotta fill up my Subies this weekend in Chicago. Doh!!!

[OB99W]

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me3.html

 

Above link provided without comment (other than that you'll probably either laugh or cry over the reference to the cost of the hardware versus the cost of a tank of gas at the time the article was written).

 

EDIT: Here are two more, just for the heck of it.

http://www.motherearthnews.com/Green-Homes/1979-09-01/Water-Injection-Wizardry.aspx

http://www.remnantsaints.com/AlternativeUtilities/Hydrogen/aquatune.htm

[forester2002s]

Years ago (1960s), I recall that some racing cars had water injection to boost performance.

 

At that time (in my pre-Subie youth) I had a 150cc Lambretta scooter. This had a two-stroke engine, and a very simple carburetor.

I remember that the engine performed much better in damp weather; it ran much smoother and seemed to have more power than on dry, sunny days.

Not a very scientific piece of info, I realize, but the water did seem to help.

[Oregon_Legacy]

It still sounds like a scam to me. I wish that I can increase my mileage with my Subie but I doubt it.

[idosubaru]

HELLO you goobers. just get the electric supercharger off ebay. instant 20hp and 10 mpg!

[ronemus]

Water injection can reduce flame temperature (reduce heat and wear), increase the octane tolerance (reduce knock/ping) and extract more useful energy by converting liquid water to steam; however, doing so isn't a simple or inexpensive proposition. You would need a water injection system comparable in complexity to a fuel injection system integrated with the engine management, remapped engine control, modified internals to take advantage of the new setup and to resist damage from added water, etc. You also wouldn't dare let the water tank go dry as that could toast the engine. Cold weather operation is also an engineering challenge. This isn't something for the shade-tree mechanic to tinker with.

[OB99W]

Water injection can reduce flame temperature (reduce heat and wear), increase the octane tolerance (reduce knock/ping)[...]This isn't something for the shade-tree mechanic to tinker with.

Exactly; it's not that water injection can't help, it's that doing it so the results are consistent/reliable isn't trivial.

[Rooster2]

Years ago (1960s), I recall that some racing cars had water injection to boost performance.

 

At that time (in my pre-Subie youth) I had a 150cc Lambretta scooter. This had a two-stroke engine, and a very simple carburetor.

I remember that the engine performed much better in damp weather; it ran much smoother and seemed to have more power than on dry, sunny days.

Not a very scientific piece of info, I realize, but the water did seem to help.

 

 

Yea, I too had a two stroke scooter back in the sixties. Yes, I remember that the motor ran smoother with more power in damp conditions. Cars, too, with carburetors ran smoother and stronger. It was explained to me that the damp weather condition was a factor of lower barimetric pressure. Lower pressure results in denser air with a higher oxygen level. The higher oxygen level gave increased performance to all gas motors.

[forester2002s]

Yea, I too had a two stroke scooter back in the sixties. Yes, I remember that the motor ran smoother with more power in damp conditions. Cars, too, with carburetors ran smoother and stronger. It was explained to me that the damp weather condition was a factor of lower barimetric pressure. Lower pressure results in denser air with a higher oxygen level. The higher oxygen level gave increased performance to all gas motors.

I'd like to believe that.

However, surely LOWER atmospheric pressure means LESS dense air, and therefore LESS oxygen?

A bit like driving up to 10,000ft in Colorado?

[Suzam]

In the early to mid 70's I remember there was an aftermarket water injecion system designed to stop the engines of that era from octane ping and knock as well as run-on or dieseling after being shut off. It was mostly because of unleaded fuels (1975 and newer cars) and new polution equipment, which at that time, was bolt on stuff to the exsisting engines, EGR and air pumps along with a ton of vacuum lines, etc.

 

It consisted of a water bottle, small pump that was hooked to a switch and rubber hose with a couple of different size nozzles. You drilled a hole in the air cleaner top over the carb and use the size nozzle for a 4, 6 or 8 cylinder engine. As I recall you were supposed to use distilled water as well.

[jerryjetman]

how exactly does an electric supercharger work? Iv'e never heard of such a thing.

[nipper]

how exactly does an electric supercharger work? Iv'e never heard of such a thing.

 

They dont. Its straight forward math to figure out how much air the engine consumes at 3000 rpm, then you apply that to standard charts for air flow/hp required from an eletric motor, you need one hell of a large electric motor to move that much air.

 

 

nipper

[outbackusjunkus]

The HHO theory (Brown's gas) and water injection are two different things. HHO is created by burning the gas created when heating the water in this magical transducer thingy, also available on e-bay. This is a big trend now, with tons of small company's on-line selling a variety of kits from a few bucks to several thousand. Its not the HHO, but something about the way it combines with your fuel air mixture to raise the MPG. I don't think its real, but a ton of folks are buying into this.

[subyrally]

going back to the thing about the corsairs, the meth/h2o was for when they used nitrous or kicked the boost way up. the boost or spray was what cooked the engine, the h2o/meth injection kept the engine cooler so it wouldnt grenade as quickly, but it was still a very breif boost or the engine would pop.

[uniberp]

My understanding is that water/mist/foam injection serves only to reduce the charge temperature and thereby increase density, and was only worthwhile on forced induction engines. The whole HHO thing is complete snakeoil.

 

Everytime there is some crises (especially fuel), the medicine men come out of the closet, and the public will buy it in mass, hoping for any improvment. Usually they can do the most improvement for free by chainging thier driving habits, but that takes work.

 

Now water injection (which i think is what they are dicussing here) has been around for ages, usually to help high compression engines deal with lower octane fuel. It's also great keeping the engine squeeky clean on the inside.

 

http://www.digitalcar.org/servlets/productDetail;WebLogicSession=Lb8TFNTjYbvM4HzyGQ1Yb1GvZ2v6BG1v9DhZdKLxp8lndNTvBVpl!-2145728906?PROD_TYP=PAPER&PROD_CD=1999-01-0568

 

Now that i would agree with, but then again the results depend upon the engines conditions, and technically its not an approved fuel. I dont know what effect it has on the catalytic converter, its been ages since i've looked into this. Also it doesnt work that well during winter.

 

nipper

[aircraft engineer]

A blast from the past -

 

Years ago I did a school mechanical engineering project on effects of humidity on fuel consumption. We used a Ford with a progressive 2 bbl carb with a separate fuel bowl, bypassed the gas inlet and isolated the secondary "fuel" bowl. Hooked up a small 12v water pump and supplied the bowl with ordinary "water". F-100 pickup truck - no "space problems", don't remember the exact engine - Ford V-8 of some kind or other about 1962 or so (it's been almost 40 years)

 

The effect was "striking" - we could see about a 10% efficiency increase. What we did was to use the carb jet in the secondary to atomize water and introduce it into the air inlet flow pretty much directly. That moisture laden air then lowered the incoming air temperature and effectively raised the octane rating. Since the whole charge was "denser" ("moisture filled air" - essentially saturated) being denser than "plain air" the whole efficiency increased accordingly.

 

There were a few caveats, though - like "what would you do in freezing conditions" (add alcohol, maybe) and when we tore down the motor we found there was absolutely no carbon WHATEVER on the cylinder, head, valves (that water just cleaned everything as well as any detergent.)

 

Now, today, I would probably opt for an electronic atomizer (like the ones they use for "sick rooms") and just bleed the water mist into the intake manifold right behind the throttle body.

 

It DOES work, but not for the same snake oil reasons. There's the same freezing issues (pure water still freezes at 0C) and there's the problem of the extra tank of water that would need to go "somewhere" (I suppose it COULD use windshield washer fluid, maybe, and the supply tank for it, too - just that it would need to be "bigger")

[OB99W]

A[...]Now, today, I would probably opt for an electronic atomizer (like the ones they use for "sick rooms") and just bleed the water mist into the intake manifold right behind the throttle body.[...]

Anyone want to "homebrew"? Here's an example of what's available:

http://www.steminc.com/piezo/mist_gen_transducer.asp

 

The piezo devices have to be protected from running out of water, and high mechanical and electrical shock. Otherwise, they should work for the purpose.

[CNY_Dave]

Let me weigh in with a few thoughts-

 

1) I can find no proof HHO (Brown's gas) actually exists, or can be made. If there's a cite I missed, lets go check it out!

 

2) Water injection is a tried-and-true method for running a boost pressure, compression ratio, or load (high throttle high load) that you ordinarily couldn't. The P51 mustang fighter used water injection (50/50 water/methanol)

 

3) I have seen a claim where using water injection, the water breaks into hydrogen and oxygen into the combustion chamber- Bunk!

 

4) If you take an engine that doesn't detonate, ping, pre-ignite, etc. etc. and use water injection on it, you don't get more power or better mileage.

 

 

 

Dave

[backwoodsboy]

4) If you take an engine that doesn't detonate, ping, pre-ignite, etc. etc. and use water injection on it, you don't get more power or better mileage.

 

 

 

Dave

 

 

Right. Ive done this on a few cars. All of them have had carbs and distys.

 

Running water injection allowed me to advance my timing, while using the 87 octane.